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S M Bde France


Zeli
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Do I understand correctly?

The 48th (South Midland) Division was an infantry division and a Territorial Force.

It changed name from South Midland Division to the 48th Division in April 1915. Previous to April 1915, embodiment would be recorded as the South Midland Division.

The South Midland Division contained 4 Royal Field Artillery Brigades (prior to the war)

1st Gloucestershire - became 240 Brigade in 1916

2nd (Worcestershire) - became 241 in 1916

3rd (Birmingham) - became 242 in 1916

4th (Warwickshire) - became 243 in 1916

The 1st S.M Bde had 3 Batteries

1st/2nd/3rd Gloucestershire Bty (Territorial Force)

Formed 04 Aug 1914 at Bristol

On 18th May 1916 - 1st/2nd/3rd became A/B/C Batteries respectively.

The SM Division are mobilised and assembled in Chelmsford by Aug 1914

So if a soldier joins 1st SM Bde (Res) in January 1915 is he sent to Chelmsford immediately?

The SM Bde arrived in France in March 1915

All of them? Or were there soldiers left at home who were in this brigade? Did all 3 Batteries go to France? If so, do they all arrive at the same time or do they filter in?

If a soldier joins in January 1915 and he is part of 1st SM Bde - did he automatically go to France?

If soldiers of the SM Bde did not arrive in France for March 1915, did they end up staying at home or were a second wave sent for reinforcement?

And finally - mention was made of Theatre of War being Western on Army Form Z.11 but no mention of France posting in Service Record. Is this normal?

Sorry for all the questions, i am desperately trying to understand how this works. Thanks.

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Do I understand correctly?

The 48th (South Midland) Division was an infantry division and a Territorial Force.

It was a Territorial Force Division in existance at the outbreak of the war

It changed name from South Midland Division to the 48th Division in April 1915. Previous to April 1915, embodiment would be recorded as the South Midland Division.

It was still known as 48th (South Midland) Division)

The South Midland Division contained 4 Royal Field Artillery Brigades (prior to the war)

1st Gloucestershire - became 240 Brigade in 1916

2nd (Worcestershire) - became 241 in 1916

3rd (Birmingham) - became 242 in 1916

4th (Warwickshire) - became 243 in 1916

The 1st S.M Bde had 3 Batteries

1st/2nd/3rd Gloucestershire Bty (Territorial Force)

Formed 04 Aug 1914 at Bristol

On 18th May 1916 - 1st/2nd/3rd became A/B/C Batteries respectively.

The SM Division are mobilised and assembled in Chelmsford by Aug 1914

So if a soldier joins 1st SM Bde (Res) in January 1915 is he sent to Chelmsford immediately?

If he is fit then more than likely

The SM Bde arrived in France in March 1915

All of them? If fit Or were there soldiers left at home who were in this brigade? Did all 3 Batteries go to France? Yes If so, do they all arrive at the same time or do they filter in? Sailed from Southamton-Le Havre, by 3 Apr 15 all units were concentrated around Cassel

If a soldier joins in January 1915 and he is part of 1st SM Bde - did he automatically go to France? Again, if he was unfit or not yet trained he may have remained in the uk and gone into a Reserve Bde or possibly as you have mentioned in your other topic transfered to Labour Corps

If soldiers of the SM Bde did not arrive in France for March 1915, did they end up staying at home or were a second wave sent for reinforcement? Re-inforements could come from almost anywhere and could be sent to where they are required

And finally - mention was made of Theatre of War being Western on Army Form Z.11 but no mention of France posting in Service Record. Is this normal?

IMO I believe that this does mean France & Flanders

Sorry for all the questions, i am desperately trying to understand how this works. Thanks.

Please give us some more info on your man and I am sure one of the members can help further.

Regards

Paul

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Thanks Paul

The details I have are as follows

William Guy is embodied on Jan 1915 (I think at Bristol), he joins the 1st SM Brigade (RFA) Reserve Unit. No. 2177. Rank: Gunner

He signs the Imperial Service Obligation form on embodiment. This form also contains the signature of commanding officer G.V.P. Wills 2nd Lieut (Depot)

The diaries of G.V.P. Wills are on this excellent website

http://www.bristolgunners.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm

He is transferred compulsorily to Labour Corps 553 Agricultural Coy on 20/07/17 and then posted to Agricultural Coy 559 also sometime in 1917 (exact date unreadable). With number 484754

The Army Form (Protection Certificate and Certificate of Identity) Z.11 states the Theatre of War or Command as Western. But nowhere on his service record soes it state he went to France. There are just 3 entries - one for the 1st SMBde and the entries for the Agricultural Coy's

There is a stay in hospital

1st Eastern General, 16/07/1916 - 23/08/16

Also his Offence Form states he goes missing for a four days during a hospital stay 13/04 - 17/04 in 1917 - the hospital is in Melkesham?

The offence form also states A Battery No. 3 Reserve Brigade

and is signed by Lt of RFA No. 3 Section 72nd D.A.C. and dated 22/11/17

One other number is mentioned on a form that appears to be for goods sent him from his wife? The number is 825783

I don't have a MIC for William Guy.

I did have one for W. C. Guy that I suspected might belong to him (especially as his second name is Charles) and he was part of the Gloucestershire Regiment, but none of the numbers tie up with the ones on his Service Record so I guess it can't be his.

Neither can I find a Service Record for the soldier I do hold the MIC for, so I can eliminate him from my research. Nor can I find a record for him in the Census.

Any help greatly appreciated (as always)

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He is transferred compulsorily to Labour Corps 553 Agricultural Coy on 20/07/17 and then posted to Agricultural Coy 559 also sometime in 1917 (exact date unreadable). With number 484754

I am not sure at all but this would be in the uk

The Army Form (Protection Certificate and Certificate of Identity) Z.11 states the Theatre of War or Command as Western. But nowhere on his service record soes it state he went to France. There are just 3 entries - one for the 1st SMBde and the entries for the Agricultural Coy's

Western Command was UK

There is a stay in hospital

1st Eastern General, 16/07/1916 - 23/08/16

This hospital was in Cambridge

Also his Offence Form states he goes missing for a four days during a hospital stay 13/04 - 17/04 in 1917 - the hospital is in Melkesham?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=187&st=260

The offence form also states A Battery No. 3 Reserve Brigade

and is signed by Lt of RFA No. 3 Section 72nd D.A.C. and dated 22/11/17

72 Division remained in the uk

One other number is mentioned on a form that appears to be for goods sent him from his wife? The number is 825783

I don't have a MIC for William Guy.

I did have one for W. C. Guy that I suspected might belong to him (especially as his second name is Charles) and he was part of the Gloucestershire Regiment, but none of the numbers tie up with the ones on his Service Record so I guess it can't be his.

Neither can I find a Service Record for the soldier I do hold the MIC for, so I can eliminate him from my research. Nor can I find a record for him in the Census.

I tend to lean towards he spent most of his time if not all in the UK . He could also have worked for the hospitals he was at as part of his duties

Paul

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Thanks Paul.

That seems to make sense except for one thing.

When did the 72nd Division start up? He joins Jan 1915 so I believe there was no 72nd Division at this time.

Could he have been moved to the 72nd at some time?

He definitely signs up as 1st SM Bde (Res)

One more thing, do you know what is a compulsory transfer? Or rather why did it occur?

post-44201-1235393315.jpg

post-44201-1235393396.jpg

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Zeli

72 Div were set up in November 1916 Somerset, and broken up in Jan 1918. Without any firm evidence there are a multitude of possibilities. Many were injured in training and could no longer return to the fitness required to go overseas. Some had illnesses which also prevented them going overseas. Many that were still able to carry out some form of duty went to the Labour Corps. If they had a particular trade then it would be utilised. The masses of Ammunition/stores/food/horses etc required overseas required an organised logistics chain which could be from anywhere in the uk and get it to the ports etc.

72 DAC could have moved ammo/guns etc. I would imagine that a compulsory transfer would be in the interest of the Army and enforced such as on medical grounds.

Regards

Paul

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Paul

That is interesting since his first hospital stay at the 1st Eastern General is 16/07/1916 - 23/08/16 so possibly he is transferred to the 72nd after that.

He was certified fit when joining the 1st SM Bde (Res) R.F.A. so possibly he is injured during training?

I have a record of him being in Colchester in Sept 1915 (he marries) - is there anyway that you know to check units at Colchester during this time?

And finally,

Is the ( Res) of significance or were the 1st SM Bde all (Res) because they were territorial?

Zeli

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Zeli

I am not sure why (res) was used in his case and maybe try a new topic for colchester 1915-what unit?

There may be some local expertise out there.

Regards

Paul

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