bclift Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 we know that my wife's grandfather was in the RFA but could anyone tell me if it is possible to identify the regiment he would have been in from the numbers inscribed on his medals? tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River97 Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Tommy, If you post his number and name, someone here may be able to pull up a Medal Index Card. That may say which one, probably not, but worth a try. There are also members here who can narrow down the units by the service number issued. Cheers Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Tommy, the Royal Field Artillery was not composed of regiments during the Great War. The unit was the Brigade, made up of Batteries. And unfortunately it is nigh-on impossible to work out a man's Brigade just from his number, unless he served in the Territorial Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bclift Posted 20 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Hi Andy, thanks for the suggestion. I've just checked out his MIC but there is no mention of his brigade. tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Tommy, what's his number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bclift Posted 20 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Hi Chris, many thanks for the post, which is more or less what I assumed. One last thought however, would the area he was recruited have any bearing on the brigade he was actually assigned to? tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Tommy, If you post his name and the other details inscribed on the medal verbatim, we'll be a lot more able to help you! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bclift Posted 20 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Hi again his number was 780117 tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Tommy If you had disclosed that information earlier then this would have come back: 780001-785000 246 BDE, RFA TF/ 1/2 W RIDING BDE 780001-785000 311 BDE, RFA TF/ 2/2 W RIDING Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bclift Posted 20 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Hi Mel, many thanks for the information though I would really appreciate it if you could explain what the abbreviations TF/1/2 and T/F 2/2 meanas I am quite new to all this. tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Tommy They were Territorial Force (TF) units as opposed to Regular Army ones. Their original designation was 1/2 and 2/2 West Riding Brigade. The 1/2 became the 246th and served with the 49th Division and the 2/2 became the 311th and served with the 62nd Division until it became an army unit from late January 1917 onwards. 246th: http://warpath.orbat.com/divs/49_div.htm This is a synopsis of the 311th's service after it left the 62nd Division: The brigade was first attached to the 34th Division, and took part in the battle of Arras on East Monday, 1 917 ; after this it occupied positions in the Arras sector, opposite Gavrelle and Oppy. In May it marched to Ploeg Street Wood, and fought in the battle of Messines, in support of the Anzacs. The battery positions in this battle were in some cases within 850 yards of the Boche front line. In June, 1917, the brigade enjoyed a rest at Bailleul, and then returned to its old positions at Messines, near Warneton. In October, 1917, it pulled out and went to the Ypres salient, where it took part in the strenuous fighting at Passchendale. December, 1917. St. Quentin sector. February, 1918. In action at Jeancourt until the big German offensive began. The brigade then retired steadily to the Somme, taking up as many as five separate positions in one day. At St. Christ's bridge it held on to its positions for two days, and then only retired on being outflanked by the enemy. The batteries remained in action on this occasion, firing over open sights, until the infantry had retired behind the guns. Positions were finally taken up about 8 miles east of Amiens. May, 1918. To the Arras sector. When the final great advance was in preparation, the brigade moved into seven different positions in ten days, in order to cover the withdrawal of the Canadians, who were being sent south. It finished up by occupying positions on the top of the Vimy ridge. During the advance, which began in August, the brigade was attached to the 8th Division and to the Canadians. When the armistice was concluded on the nth Novem- ber, 1918, it was at the village of Le Havre, about three miles east of Mons. Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Nice one Mel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Tommy Your grandfather falls into the following four and six figure number sequences: Teale, E 780110 Gunner Robinson, Robert 1066 Driver / 78011 Driver Briggs, Walter 1069 Bombardier Acting Corporal / 780112 Corporal Mellor, Lambert 1079 Acting Bombardier / 780113 Acting Bombardier Earnshaw, Walter 1080 Driver / 780114 Driver Marshall, Sam 1081 Driver / 780115 Driver Marsden, Stanley 1082 Driver / 780116 Driver Pattison, Thomas H 780117 Corporal Keighley, Jack 1094 Driver / 780119 Shoeing Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 And here is the analysis: All those that have the four as well as the six figure numbers on their MICs served with the 246th Brde. Each have a date of entry of either 14/4/15 or 15/4/15 save for Marsden, Stanley 1082 Driver / 780116 Driver who probably was sent as a reinforcement in 1916. The MICs for Gunner Teale and your grandfather have no four figure numbers recorded on their MICs which is a good indication that they entered the theatre of war in 1917 and served with 2/2 W. Riding/311th Brde. The six figure renumbering of the TF came into operation in the first quarter of 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Your grandfather's original TF number was between 1083-1094. He was a pre-war territorial and attested between December 1912 and January 1913. Marshall, Sam 1081 Driver / 780115 Driver attested on 26/11/1912 and Keighley, Jack 1094 Driver / 780119 Shoeing Smith attested on 6 /2/1913. Have a read of this from which the synopsis of the 311th Brde was drawn: http://www.archive.org/stream/warserviceso...00ande_djvu.txt Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Thanks Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Some great information from Ron on this thread that fills out the detail on the 311th synopsis: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...092;311th\ Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bclift Posted 22 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2009 many thanks to all those who supplied answrs to my query, unfortunately I am now more confused than ever. According to the information I have been given the grandfather enlisted in august 1914 at Seaham, Co. Durham which I thought would have more likely put him with something like the DLI rather than with West Yorkshires, but there again I have no real idea how RFA brigades were usually allocated. The second thing that puzzels me is the absence of a 1915 Star from his MIC since he is known to have fought in the Somme battles. Would it have been possible for him to have served with say a North East brigade from 1914 until 1917 and been awarded the 1915 star under that brigade and number and then been transferred to the West Yorkshire TR? Forgive me if this all sounds ridiculous to experienced soldiers like yourselves but it is certainly quite difficult for a newcomer layman to get his head around the way it all worked. tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 22 February , 2009 Share Posted 22 February , 2009 Jeez! I give up Medal card of Pattison, Thomas H Corps Regiment No Rank Durham Light Infantry 15524 Private Durham Light Infantry 15524 Serjeant Date 1914-1920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 22 February , 2009 Share Posted 22 February , 2009 Tommy, The 1915 Star was awarded to men who served overseas before the end of 1915. The Battle of the Somme began on 1st July, 1916 and ran until mid-November, so it is quite likely that a high proportion of men who fought on the Somme have no 1915 Star. If he had a 1915 Star it would have had details of the unit with which he first served overseas (but only the name of the Corps or Regiment, i.e. RFA or DLI, for example, not the Brigade or Battalion info). Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 February , 2009 Share Posted 22 February , 2009 Tommy, I may have missed this in this increasingly dense thread, but what your wife's grandfather's full name? You have told us his Service Number higher up (780117), but I can't see you've given his name anywhere. Was it Thomas H Pattison? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 February , 2009 Share Posted 22 February , 2009 ... which I thought would have more likely put him with something like the DLI rather than with West Yorkshires ... tommy Tommy, Was your wife's grandfather an infantryman then? All our pointers so far suggest he was a territorial in the artillery. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bclift Posted 22 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2009 yes his name was Thomas H Pattison and he was in the artillery, but from the information I have been given he enlisted in august 1914 at Seaham, Co Durham which prompts my query about him being with the west yorkshires. tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 February , 2009 Share Posted 22 February , 2009 yes his name was Thomas H Pattison and he was in the artillery, but from the information I have been given he enlisted in august 1914 at Seaham, Co Durham which prompts my query about him being with the west yorkshires. tommy Tommy, I can't see anyone, except yourself, placing him in the West Yorkshire Regiment (an infantry regiment) - am I missing something? Where have you got the West Yorks reference from? All the Pals have him as a gunner in the Royal Field Artillery and, within the RFA, his unit was most likely 311th (2nd/2nd West Riding) Brigade, which was a Territorial Force unit. This page on the Mother Site explains what 2nd/2nd means: Long Long Trail: the Territorial Force If you're not certain this territorials gunner is your man, then Mel has also found a DLI infantryman with the same name but a different Service Number that you can follow through instead. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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