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what regiment


bclift
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we know that my wife's grandfather was in the RFA but could anyone tell me if it is possible to identify the regiment he would have been in from the numbers inscribed on his medals?

tommy

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Tommy,

If you post his number and name, someone here may be able to pull up a Medal Index Card. That may say which one, probably not, but worth a try. There are also members here who can narrow down the units by the service number issued.

Cheers Andy.

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Tommy, the Royal Field Artillery was not composed of regiments during the Great War. The unit was the Brigade, made up of Batteries. And unfortunately it is nigh-on impossible to work out a man's Brigade just from his number, unless he served in the Territorial Force.

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Hi Chris,

many thanks for the post, which is more or less what I assumed. One last thought however, would the area he was recruited have any bearing on the brigade he was actually assigned to?

tommy

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Tommy,

If you post his name and the other details inscribed on the medal verbatim, we'll be a lot more able to help you!

Cheers,

Mark

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Tommy

If you had disclosed that information earlier then this would have come back:

780001-785000 246 BDE, RFA TF/ 1/2 W RIDING BDE

780001-785000 311 BDE, RFA TF/ 2/2 W RIDING

Mel

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Hi Mel,

many thanks for the information though I would really appreciate it if you could explain what the abbreviations TF/1/2 and T/F 2/2 meanas I am quite new to all this.

tommy

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Tommy

They were Territorial Force (TF) units as opposed to Regular Army ones.

Their original designation was 1/2 and 2/2 West Riding Brigade.

The 1/2 became the 246th and served with the 49th Division and the 2/2 became the 311th and served with the 62nd Division until it became an army unit from late January 1917 onwards.

246th: http://warpath.orbat.com/divs/49_div.htm

This is a synopsis of the 311th's service after it left the 62nd Division:

The brigade was first attached to the 34th Division,

and took part in the battle of Arras on East Monday,

1 917 ; after this it occupied positions in the Arras sector,

opposite Gavrelle and Oppy.

In May it marched to Ploeg Street Wood, and fought

in the battle of Messines, in support of the Anzacs. The

battery positions in this battle were in some cases within

850 yards of the Boche front line.

In June, 1917, the brigade enjoyed a rest at Bailleul,

and then returned to its old positions at Messines, near

Warneton.

In October, 1917, it pulled out and went to the Ypres

salient, where it took part in the strenuous fighting at

Passchendale.

December, 1917. St. Quentin sector.

February, 1918. In action at Jeancourt until the big

German offensive began. The brigade then retired

steadily to the Somme, taking up as many as five

separate positions in one day. At St. Christ's bridge

it held on to its positions for two days, and then only

retired on being outflanked by the enemy. The batteries

remained in action on this occasion, firing over open

sights, until the infantry had retired behind the guns.

Positions were finally taken up about 8 miles east of

Amiens.

May, 1918. To the Arras sector. When the final

great advance was in preparation, the brigade moved into

seven different positions in ten days, in order to cover the

withdrawal of the Canadians, who were being sent south.

It finished up by occupying positions on the top of the

Vimy ridge.

During the advance, which began in August, the

brigade was attached to the 8th Division and to the

Canadians.

When the armistice was concluded on the nth Novem-

ber, 1918, it was at the village of Le Havre, about three

miles east of Mons.

Regards

Mel

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Tommy

Your grandfather falls into the following four and six figure number sequences:

Teale, E 780110 Gunner

Robinson, Robert 1066 Driver / 78011 Driver

Briggs, Walter 1069 Bombardier Acting Corporal / 780112 Corporal

Mellor, Lambert 1079 Acting Bombardier / 780113 Acting Bombardier

Earnshaw, Walter 1080 Driver / 780114 Driver

Marshall, Sam 1081 Driver / 780115 Driver

Marsden, Stanley 1082 Driver / 780116 Driver

Pattison, Thomas H 780117 Corporal

Keighley, Jack 1094 Driver / 780119 Shoeing Smith

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And here is the analysis:

All those that have the four as well as the six figure numbers on their MICs served with the 246th Brde. Each have a date of entry of either 14/4/15 or 15/4/15 save for Marsden, Stanley 1082 Driver / 780116 Driver who probably was sent as a reinforcement in 1916.

The MICs for Gunner Teale and your grandfather have no four figure numbers recorded on their MICs which is a good indication that they entered the theatre of war in 1917 and served with 2/2 W. Riding/311th Brde. The six figure renumbering of the TF came into operation in the first quarter of 1917.

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Your grandfather's original TF number was between 1083-1094.

He was a pre-war territorial and attested between December 1912 and January 1913.

Marshall, Sam 1081 Driver / 780115 Driver attested on 26/11/1912 and Keighley, Jack 1094 Driver / 780119 Shoeing Smith attested on 6 /2/1913.

Have a read of this from which the synopsis of the 311th Brde was drawn:

http://www.archive.org/stream/warserviceso...00ande_djvu.txt

Regards

Mel

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many thanks to all those who supplied answrs to my query, unfortunately I am now more confused than ever. According to the information I have been given the grandfather enlisted in august 1914 at Seaham, Co. Durham which I thought would have more likely put him with something like the DLI rather than with West Yorkshires, but there again I have no real idea how RFA brigades were usually allocated. The second thing that puzzels me is the absence of a 1915 Star from his MIC since he is known to have fought in the Somme battles. Would it have been possible for him to have served with say a North East brigade from 1914 until 1917 and been awarded the 1915 star under that brigade and number and then been transferred to the West Yorkshire TR? Forgive me if this all sounds ridiculous to experienced soldiers like yourselves but it is certainly quite difficult for a newcomer layman to get his head around the way it all worked.

tommy

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Jeez! I give up :glare:

Medal card of Pattison, Thomas H

Corps Regiment No Rank

Durham Light Infantry 15524 Private

Durham Light Infantry 15524 Serjeant

Date 1914-1920

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Tommy,

The 1915 Star was awarded to men who served overseas before the end of 1915. The Battle of the Somme began on 1st July, 1916 and ran until mid-November, so it is quite likely that a high proportion of men who fought on the Somme have no 1915 Star.

If he had a 1915 Star it would have had details of the unit with which he first served overseas (but only the name of the Corps or Regiment, i.e. RFA or DLI, for example, not the Brigade or Battalion info).

Ken

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Tommy,

I may have missed this in this increasingly dense thread, but what your wife's grandfather's full name?

You have told us his Service Number higher up (780117), but I can't see you've given his name anywhere.

Was it Thomas H Pattison?

Cheers,

Mark

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... which I thought would have more likely put him with something like the DLI rather than with West Yorkshires ...

tommy

Tommy,

Was your wife's grandfather an infantryman then?

All our pointers so far suggest he was a territorial in the artillery.

Cheers,

Mark

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yes his name was Thomas H Pattison and he was in the artillery, but from the information I have been given he enlisted in august 1914 at Seaham, Co Durham which prompts my query about him being with the west yorkshires.

tommy

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yes his name was Thomas H Pattison and he was in the artillery, but from the information I have been given he enlisted in august 1914 at Seaham, Co Durham which prompts my query about him being with the west yorkshires.

tommy

Tommy,

I can't see anyone, except yourself, placing him in the West Yorkshire Regiment (an infantry regiment) - am I missing something? Where have you got the West Yorks reference from?

All the Pals have him as a gunner in the Royal Field Artillery and, within the RFA, his unit was most likely 311th (2nd/2nd West Riding) Brigade, which was a Territorial Force unit.

This page on the Mother Site explains what 2nd/2nd means:

Long Long Trail: the Territorial Force

If you're not certain this territorials gunner is your man, then Mel has also found a DLI infantryman with the same name but a different Service Number that you can follow through instead.

Cheers,

Mark

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