niimmm Posted 16 February , 2009 Share Posted 16 February , 2009 Hello all can somone please tell me what the Frmmer auto that the Austrains used in Italy was like, mag size rate of fire ect? Cheerrs all, Nim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 16 February , 2009 Share Posted 16 February , 2009 Here you go:- http://www.sunblest.net/gun/FromStop.htm Basically an idiosyncratic 7.65 (of which there were many), loaded hotter than the standard .32 ACP. Complex design, but by all accounts well-made, robust, durable, and reliable if well-maintained. Pistols in the 7 - 8mm calibre range are all a bit light for military use, with the possible exception of 7.63 Mauser/Tokarev chamberings. Even a hot loading in the 7.65 case would struggle to deliver half the energy of a 9mmP or .45 ACP. Regaards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niimmm Posted 17 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Pistols in the 7 - 8mm calibre range are all a bit light for military use, with the possible exception of 7.63 Mauser/Tokarev chamberings. Even a hot loading in the 7.65 case would struggle to deliver half the energy of a 9mmP or .45 ACP. Regaards, MikB Thats great thanks but can you tell me was it able to fire in fully auto or was it just a semi-auto. can you please also tell me did it ever have a large mag of more than just the 7 or 8 rounds? many thanks,, Nim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 The Frommer Stop was a semi-auto only pistol and I have never seen or heard of an extended magazine for it. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niimmm Posted 17 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2009 What does it mean by "loaded hot". Nim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Loaded "hot" means loaded to a higher pressure, usually to give a higher muzzle velocity or use a heavier bullet weight. The normal 7.65mm Browning round used a 71 grn. bullet at 960-980 fps, but I cannot find any details of the Frommer load. The link shown gives a MV of 920fps, which is lower than normal, but does not give a bullet weight. Quite what was hot about the Frommer cartridge is unknown to me, but I shall endeavour to find out. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Hogg (Small arms of the Twentieth Century) suggests the pistol was also available in 9mm Short. Capacity is given as 7rnds. They were made in Hungary There are apparently three models the 12M, 19M (the Frommer Stop) and the 39M. The 12M was adopted by the Honved in 1912 and the 19M became the standard weapon of the new Hungarian army in 1919. TonyE there may be a clue here : Hogg states "Some weapons were made in 9mmShort during World War I but a revision was made to 7.65mm when the Frommer weapons was adopted in 1919" - I am not sure if this is a typo and it should read REVERSION ? or is it a suggestion that the 7.65mm round was REVISED (ie hotted up?) Hogg too (p1.22) cites the muzzle velocity as 920fps (280mps) and comments: "The Frommer weapons are reasonably well made of sound material, but they are ugly and awkward and have little to commend them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Loaded "hot" means loaded to a higher pressure, usually to give a higher muzzle velocity or use a heavier bullet weight. The normal 7.65mm Browning round used a 71 grn. bullet at 960-980 fps... Regards TonyE I actually found I couldn't achieve more than 906 with any maximum load I tried in the Browning M1910 and Colt 1903 I used to have. The Colt was in rather 'tired' condition, but the Browning was minty with very little barrel wear. I suspect that manufacturers' advertised test barrel velocities from decades of published catalogues have found their way into the standard literature. So 920 may in reality have been a little hot - certainly a top-end load for 32 ACP/7.65 Browning. Some 7.65 bullets of 77 grains have been on the market, and the 7.63 Mauser/Tokarev bullet (effectively the same diameter IIRC) usually weighs 85 - 93 grains. I tried loading a couple of these into 7.65 cases for the Browning with what I thought a mild powder charge - anything else would've been compressed by the extra bullet length - but the way these slammed the slide back and started the primers out of their pockets was too severe to want to continue with in a blowback gun. It might, of course, have been just the ticket for a long recoil gun like the Frommer. Pity I couldn't chrongraph it, but I'd already shot the club chronograph dead once, and had to repair it - nobody would let me near it with a 32 again Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 The 7.65 Pisztoly 12M was initially adopted by the Honved instead of the M12 Steyr-Hahn which was regarded as "too powerful, too large and probably too expensive". It was a development of the 1910 Frommer pistol (used in small numbers) which was truely ugly (and possibly the version Hogg refers to). Over 100,000 7.65 Pisztoly 12Ms were issued in WW1.I've seen the MV shown as 305m/sec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Chris - I don't have a lot of faith in Hogg when he is writing on small arms (he is excellent on artillery), and prefer the much more scholarly "Handguns of the World" by the late Ed Ezell of the Smithsonian Institute. He states that the 9mm Short version of the Frommer was only made after the war and only sold commercially. No government marked 9mm pistols are known. The version adopted by the Hungarians after the war as the M19 was the 7.65mm model. Mik - I have always found that the gratuitous murder of club chronographs seldom wins you many friends. Centurian - 305m/sec (1000 fps) is certainly "hotter" than a regular 7.65mm and may well be the Frommer load. What was the source? Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Mik - I have always found that the gratuitous murder of club chronographs seldom wins you many friends. It was an accident guv, honest! It was me 'and shakin' from the 27-pound trigger-pull! It did win me a lovingly felt-tip inscribed wooden spoon at the AGM which I still have... And the chronograph lived again - the only internal damage was one broken wire. But superannuated pocket-rockets and saturday night specials were banned from it. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Centurian - 305m/sec (1000 fps) is certainly "hotter" than a regular 7.65mm and may well be the Frommer load. What was the source? Central Powers Small Arms of World War One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Thanks - I presume that is the Walters book? Regards Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Thanks - I presume that is the Walters book? Regards Tony Yes, sorry I should have said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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