London Regiment's former Volunteer Rifle Corps units

[MBrockway]

Pals,

A Topic over on the Soldiers forum about a rifleman who transferred from ASC to The Rifle Brigade and thence into the Artists' Rifles (28th London Regiment): Rifleman Thomas Flint - Artists Rifles !, help needed if possible ! ... triggered a discussion about the connections between the London Regiment Territorial Force units and the King's Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC) and The Rifle Brigade (RB) that threatened to hijack the original subject of that Topic.

It was suggested that the more general points about the complex links between these regiments be lifted out into a separate Topic so they'd be easier to find in future - hence this post.

I'll attempt to copy the relevant parts into this new Topic.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

A point from me ...

Andy,

Is it significant that the Rifle Brigade BWM medal roll does not mention the specific RB battalion for these men?

Could they have been attached to the Artist's Rifles almost immediately after being transferred from the ASC and were never formally posted to an RB non-territorial battalion?

I don't know how the rolls handle the RB territorials - as you know, the KRRC didn't have that set up!

Cheers,

Mark

Andy's reply to this ...

Hi Mark,

None of this little group of ASC men transferred into the RB went to batttalion as you point out. My feeling is that they went to the Artist's rifles which was a territorial affiliate of the Rifle Brigade.

The actual Territorial battalions of the Rifle Brigade (18th to 25th) had very little to do with the Rifle Brigade, being managed through the City of London Territorial Association and the London Record Office being ex National Reserve men.

These were Rifle Brigade battalions in name only, when these battalions were made up the only Regiments that did not have Territorials or territorial areas of recruitment were the Guards, K.R.R.C. & R.B., the Director of Personnel Services suggested they were placed under the R.B. banner.

Andy

[MBrockway]

Then from me ...

Andy - my thoughts exactly!

The territorials aspects of the King's Royal Rifle Corps and The Rifle Brigade are a bit confusing, so maybe it'd be worth putting in some notes here ...

As Andy says, the KRRC, RB and Guards did not have Territorial Force battalions in 1914.

However prior to the 1908 Haldane Reforms, the KRRC and RB did have affiliated battalions in the Volunteer Force. These mostly had their origins in the Volunteer Rifle Corps (VRC) movement dating back to 1859 (though some of these volunteer units go back considerably further), and being rifles units it was natural to become affiliated to one of the two line rifles regiments.

When the Territorial Force was set up in 1908 under the Haldane Reforms, the London-based Volunteer Force units were all rolled up together into the new London Regiment - an all territorial unit. These included the units that had formerly been affiliated to the KRRC and the RB (as well as inter alia the Royal Fusiliers, Middlesex, East Surrey, Surrey and Royal West Kent regiments).

I'll try and give a simplified list of these pre-1908 rifles affiliations ....

London Regiment units affiliated to KRRC pre-1908

5th LR (London Rifle Brigade) - !!! [in 1937 the LRB were re-affiliated to the RB (not the KRRC!)]

6th LR (Rifles)

7th LR (the "Shiny Seventh")

9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles) [the 1st Middlesex VRC part]¹

11th LR (Finsbury Rifles)

12th LR (The Rangers aka Central London Rangers)

13th LR (Kensington)

15th LR (Civil Service Rifles)

16th LR (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

London Regiment units affiliated to The RB pre-1908

8th LR (Post Office Rifles)

9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles) [the 19th Middlesex VRC part]¹

10th LR (Paddington Rifles) - disbanded in 1912

14th LR (London Scottish)

17th LR (Poplar & Stepney Rifles)

18th LR (London Irish Rifles)

25th LR (Cyclist)

28th LR (Artists' Rifles) - hence Rfn Flint's transfer as described above

¹9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles aka QVR) was formed by the merger of 1st and 19th Middlesex VRCs, which were affiliated to the KRRC and the RB respectively, so I've put it in both lists. The QVR was re-affiliated to the KRRC prior to WW2. The QWR and CSR merged in 1921, was re-affiliated to the KRRC, and eventually merged with the QVR in 1961.

When the London Regiment ceased to exist between the wars, many of these territorial units re-established the pre-1908 links to their original line regiments, though this was complicated because some of these units had merged since 1908. Some units had very bizarre fates - The Post Office Rifles became an anti-aircraft artillery unit for example! Likewise some of these units were the results of mergers in the second half of the 19th century, so the real picture is a bit more complex than above - apologies to the Pals for any errors!

Thus the KRRC and the RB both started the War with no territorial battalions. In 1915 however it was decided to form spare National Reservists into completely new Territorial Force units for garrison service overseas. As Andy says, the powers on high then decided to badge these new TF battalions as the 18th - 25th battalions of The Rifle Brigade, and, as Andy also says, these extra battalions were never really properly absorbed into the rifles family.

Unusually all of these new TF battalions were allocated only to The Rifle Brigade - the KRRC did not get any of them. Generally whatever happened to the one regiment was repeated in the other, and that in this case it didn't, is perhaps indicative of how artificial this RB affiliation really was.

That said, the KRRC raised several more Pals-type battalions than The Rifle Brigade and already had three extra Service battalions (18/KRRC, 20/KRRC, 21/KRRC) and formed 25/KRRC later.

One last point: there is often confusion between the 16th (Service) Battalion (St Pancras) of The Rifle Brigade and 19th Battalion (St Pancras) of the London Regiment - these were entirely separate battalions! Andy gave a lot of detail on this in another Topic if you do a Search.

I hope this makes some sort of sense to everybody and it helps clarify the links between the KRRC/RB and the London Regiment units all in one place.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

This next bit is slightly off the territorials topic, but I'll include it anyway for convenience.

Mark,

There was also a 17th Battalion of the Rifle Brigade from the same St Pancras area as the 16th RB but which never saw service overseas, you often see it mentioned in RB service records.

Andy

I added ...

Andy,

Now you mention it, you told me about the 17/RB in that earlier Topic we had about the 16th Rifle Brigade (St Pancras) and the "P" Prefix:

Phillip Mawbey, 16th & 17th RB, St Pancras and the "P" Prefix

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Back onto the territorials topic ...

Mark,

Quite a few of the battalions of the London Regiment that you mention became Territorial battalions of the RB & KRRC in 1916.

Andy

Andy,

Good point about the 1916 re-affiliations, I'd forgotten that.

Checking back in Wallace's The King's Royal Rifle Corps ... the 60th Rifles - A Brief History: 1755 to 1965, he has twelve London-based Volunteer Rifle Corps designated as KRRC volunteer battalions as part of the Childers Reforms in 1881, reducing to ten by 1904. Sadly he doesn't list them! Most unhelpful as my list only has nine!

He goes on to confirm your point stating that the pre-1908 affiliations were restored in July 1916 - though he then lists only six London Regiment battalions returning to the KRRC ...

• 6th LR (City of London Rifles)
• 9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles)
• 11th LR (Finsbury Rifles)
• 12th LR (The Rangers)
• 15th LR (Civil Service Rifles)
• 16th LR (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

I'm guessing that 5th LR (London Rifle Brigade) went to The Rifle Brigade, but so far I've not found out what happened to the 7th LR and 13th LR (Kensington Rifles)

Not a dicky bird about these LR battalions in either the 1916 KRRC Chronicle nor the KRRC Annals Great War volume!

I have another source, which Prof Ian Becket put me on to when I was trying to find out more about the Volunteer League of the British Empire, the Volunteer Training Corps and the Rifle Volunteer Corps !!

This gives an unattributed list of the Volunteer Force battalions designated to the line Regiments under Childers in 1881 with ...

KRRC

1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 12th, 13th, 21st, 22nd, 25th, 26th & 27th Middlesex VRC

1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th London VRC

[Total - 17]

The Rifle Brigade

7th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 24th Middlesex VRC

2nd Tower Hamlets VRC

[Total - 9]

You'll see the KRRC total of 17 differs from Wallace's 12 :-(

For a while now, I've been trying to build an accurate cross-reference between these VRC units, their KRRC/RB designated Volunteer Battalion number and their eventual post-Haldane London Regiment battalion.

This has proved somewhat troublesome! Here's my current version, but be warned, it's very much a work in progress, with lots of gaps and needing further corroboration/correction

KRRC

Middlesex VRC battalions

1st (Victoria Rifles) = 4th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 9th Btn, London Regt (Queen Victoria's Rifles) [+ 6 & 19 Mdx VRC]

2nd (S Middlesex) = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> 13th Btn, London Regt (Kensington Rifles) [+4th Mdx VRC]

4th (W London) = 3rd Vol Btn., KRRC -> 13th Btn, London Regt (Kensington Rifles) [+2nd Mdx VRC]

5th (W Middlesex) = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> ?? Btn, London Regt

6th (St George's) = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> 9th Btn, London Regt (Queen Victoria's Rifles) [+ 1 & 19 Mdx VRC]

9th (Harrow) = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> ?? Btn, London Regt

12th = 5th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 15th Btn, London Regt (PoW's Own Civil Service Rifles)

13th = 6th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 16th Btn, London Regt (Queen's Westminster Rifles)

21st = 7th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 11th Btn, London Regt (Finsbury Rifles)

22nd = 8th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 12th Btn, London Regt (The Rangers)

25th (Bank of England) = Vol Btn., KRRC -> Btn, London Regt (

26th = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> 25th Btn, London Regt (Cyclist) [elsewhere shown as affiliated to Rifle Brigade]

27th = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> ?? Btn, London Regt

London VRC battalions

1st = 9th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 5th Btn, London Regt (London Rifle Brigade)

2nd = 10th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 6th Btn, London Regt (City of London Rifles)

3rd = 11th Vol Btn., KRRC -> 7th Btn, London Regt (the "Shiny Seventh")

4th = ?? Vol Btn., KRRC -> ?? Btn, London Regt [no record elsewhere of this unit]

The Rifle Brigade

Middlesex VRC battalions

7th = 1st Vol Btn., RB -> 14th Btn, London Regt (London Scottish)

14th = ?? Vol Btn., RB -> 27th Btn, London Regt (Inns of Court) [redesignated Inns of Court OTC]

15th (Customs & Docks) = ?? Vol Btn., RB -> 17th Btn, London Regt (Poplar & Stepney Rifles)

16th = 3rd Vol Btn., RB -> 18th Btn, London Regt (London Irish Rifles)

18th = 4th Vol Btn., RB -> 10th Btn, London Regt (Paddington Rifles) [disbanded 1912]

19th (Bloomsbury) = 6th?? Vol Btn., RB -> 9th Btn, London Regt (QVR) [+ 1 & 6 Mdx VRC]

20th = 6th?? Vol Btn., RB -> 28th Btn, London Regt (Artists' Rifles)

24th = 7th Vol Btn., RB -> 8th Btn, London Regt (Post Office Rifles)

Tower Hamlets VRC battalion

2nd Tower Hamlets VRC = 9th Vol Btn., RB -> 17th Btn, London Regt (Poplar & Stepney Rifles)

All corrections welcome! Particularly if you can help remove some of the ??s

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Mark,

Michael Haines (ex RB Officer) wrote quite a bit on the Militia, Volunteer & Territorial Regiments and The Middlesex Volunteer Rifle Corps in 1989, which I have. You are right about the LRB becoming a Territorial Battalion of The Rifle Brigade in 1916 and in 1941 it became the 7th & 8th Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own) (London Rifle Brigade).

Andy

[MBrockway]

Pals,

That's the end of the material copied across from the other Topic.

Please feel free to highlight all my mistakes!

Apologies in advance to the London Regiment specialists to whom this subject probably is much clearer!

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Gawd,

You have started something here. There is an article in one of the Rifle Brigade Chronicles regarding this "Affiliation of Volunteer and Territorial Battalions to The Rifle Brigade" by Captain the Hon. R.C. Bridgeman, M.C., Also a booklet "The Rifle Brigade - Militia, Volunteer and Territorial Regiments, The Middlesex Volunteer Rifle Corps" by Michael Haines, another ex Rifle Brigade Officer where Michael states that is a "fascinating but extremely complicated" subject.

Andy

[MBrockway]

Gawd,

You have started something here. There is an article in one of the Rifle Brigade Chronicles regarding this "Affiliation of Volunteer and Territorial Battalions to The Rifle Brigade" by Captain the Hon. R.C. Bridgeman, M.C., Also a booklet "The Rifle Brigade - Militia, Volunteery and Terrotorial Regiments, The Middlesex Volunteer Rifle Corps" by Michael Haines, another ex Rifle Brigade Officer where Michael states that is a "fascinating but extremely complicated" subject.

Andy

Andy,

I know - GULP! - but this area has been bamboozling me for months! And queries about all this come up a lot on the Forum.

I've just found a handy TAVR Family Tree on the RGJ Association website, but even that isn't complete - no mention of the Post Office Rifles for example!

I'll take another look through the KRRC Chronicles to just double check I haven't missed an equivalent article about the KRRC.

The general KRRC histories all skip over the subject saying it is too large for their scope! Probably more the province of the London Regiment histories anyway.

The book by Michael Haines sounds very useful. Here's a link to Amazon which at least shows its details, but the book is unavailable:

The Rifle Brigade - Militia, Volunteer and Territorial Regiments - The Tower Hamlets Militia and Volunteer Rifles

There is a copy on AbeBooks, but I have the belt tightened just now till I'm back in gainful so I shall ignore that for now!

I don't know if this is separate volume covering the Tower Hamlets VRCs, or it's the same book you've mentioned. Michael wrote several important books on the RB IIRC.

I was very sorry to hear Michael had passed away - he was clearly a great ambassador for the Regiment.

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

OK, you asked for it, trust the RB to note such things but the KRRC not too well it has relevance to WW1 but is a complicated story.

This is the Bridgeman piece:-

Those (if any) who read Army Orders will recollect that in the 1926 Army Order No. 49 declared that the 5th, 10th, 17th and 23rd Bns. of the London Regiment form part of the Corps of The Rifle Brigade for the purposes of the Army Act.

How much, or how little, this affiliation may mean in war is hard to say. In peace time it gives the Regular part of The Rifle Brigade the right to supply these Territorial battalions with Adjutants and Permament Staff Warrant Officers and N.C.O.'s It gives the Territorial Battalions the moral right to expect goodwill and good value from the regular part of their corps and for the rest it is what both sides agree to make of it: however, as the affiliation has existed in some shape or other since 1873, it may be of interest to sketch very briefly the connection of the Regiment with the London Battalions.

The Volunteer force, which had lapsed after the Battle of Trafalgar, had put an end to fears of invasion by Napoleon I, and was revived in 1859 and 1860 in response to fears of invasion by Napoleon III.

These units were known as "Rifle Volunteers"; a large number, especially in London, adopted Rifle uniforms and a still larger number the Rifle pouch belt - an interesting sidelight on the popularity of the green jacket in those days, when the Prince Consort was Colonel-in-Chief of his Regiment.

However, their organization hardly kept abreast of their goodwill or their costume; units, of varying numbers of companies, were at first entirely independent of the Regular forces in all respects, and though grouped by counties, were in no way linked with the regular forces till the Caldwell reforms.

Then, in Auxiliary and Reserve Forces Circular 22 of 1873, we find the Volunteer units grouped into Administrative Battalions of "Volunteer Corps" and definetely allotted to Regimental Districts, to which Regular and Militia Battalions already belonged.

It does not appear the The Rifle Brigade or the 60th Rifles had any previous connection with the London area. However, there was the problem of well over fifty London corps to be allotted to Regular regiments, a number far beyond the power of the Royal Fusiliers and the Middlesex Regiment to deal with efficiently.

Accordingly two "Regimental Sub-districts" (51 and 52) were made over to the 60th Rifles and two (53 and 54) to The Rifle Brigade, and the effect of this was to ally to the Regiment a motley collection of Volunteer units.

It is not quite clear which units in 1873 belonged to the 60th, and which to The Rifle Brigade, but in 1874 we find that our allied units were:-

1st City of London Volunteer Rifle Corps (now London Rifle Brigade)

2nd City of London Volunteer Rifle Corps

15th Middlesex (London Scottish)

23rd Middlesex (Inns of Court)

26th Middlesex (Customs and Docks)

28th Middlesex (London Irish)

36th Middlesex (Paddington Green)

37th Middlesex (St. Giles and St. George's)

39th Middlesex (Finsbury)

Later, in 1875, the 38th (Arts Club, now the Artist Rifles), the 49th (Post Office), 50th (Bank of England) and 1st and 2nd Tower Hamlets Volunteer Rifle Corps were added.

This is a very interesting list, as it includes the ancestors of our present affiliated battalions. The L.R.B., it is true, were affiliated to the 60th in 1876, and the Paddington Battalion (later 10th London Regiment) was disbanded in 1913 and re-raised at Hackney.

Andy

(more to come)

[stiletto_33853]

Off the others, the London Scottish remained affiliated till 1908, when it properly became part of the corps of the Gordon Highlanders. The London Irish remained until in 1916 it was affiliated to the then Royal Irish Rifles. The "Customs and Docks" and the 2nd Tower Hamlets Volunteers amalgamated in 1908 to form the 17th Bn. London Regiment or Poplar and Stepney Rifles, who lately cast of the name of Poplar and its unsavoury associations and returned to their old title of Tower Hamlets Rifles.

The Inns of Court Volunteers remained till 1908 they were incorporated in the Officers Training Corps, and the Bank of England Volunteers, never, it seems, a very strong unit, were amalgamated with the Civil Service V.R.C., a unit affiliated to the 60th Rifles.

The Post Office Rifles, who wore a badge almost identical to our own, remained allied to The Rifle Brigade till their amalgamation in 1922 with the 7th Bn. City of London Regiment; the Finsbury V.R.C. is the forerunner of the 11th Bn. London Regiment and was transferred in 1884 to the 60th in which Corps it has been ever since, though it has often had in the past an Adjutant from The Rifle Brigade. The Rangers, allied to the 60th, have almost an equally close association with The Rifle Brigade.

The Arts Club, soon altered to the Artists, is the only Battalion which has never amalgamated or changed its organization and which has been continually affiliated to the Regiment. It is interesting to notice that its Commanding Officer in 1873 afterwards became Lord Leighton, President of the Royal Academy.

In 1881 a further re-organization of the Army led to the disbanding and amalgamating of weak Volunteer corps and the renumbering of the battalions. The Volunteer Battalions affiliated to the Regiment now became part of the Corps for the puirpose of the Army Act, and were:-

7th (late 15th) Middlesex (London Scottish)

14th (late 23rd) Middlesex (Inns of Court)

15th (late 26th) Middlesex (Customs and Docks)

16th (late 28th) Middlesex (London Irish)

18th (late 36th) Middlesex (Paddington)

19th (late 37th) Middlesex (St. Giles & St. George's)

20th (late 38th) Middlesex (Artists)

21st (late 39th) Middlesex (Finsbury {joined 60th in 1884})

24th (late 49th) Middlesex (Post Office)

1st Tower Hamlets

2nd Tower Hamlets

In 1882 these battalions are for the first time shown in the Army List directly after the Militia battalions The Rifle Brigade, and it is evident that their affiliation was becoming a reality. Hitherto, the Adjutants and permament staff had been retired officers and N.C.O.'s whose tenure of office was indefinete. Now they were replaced by Regular permament staff. Since 1873 not a single unit had had an Adjutant from The Rifle Brigade, but in 1884 Major C.R. Prideaux-Brune became Adjutant of the Inns of Court and Captain R.J. Maude, Adjutant of the 1st Tower Hamlets. Captain A.H.F. Hervey went to the Post Office Rifles in 1886; Captain G.F. Leslie the St. Giles & St. George's in 1888 and Captain A. Lamb to the Artists in 1891.

In 1889 the last new Volunteer unit appeared, the 26th Middlesex (Cyclist) Battalion, and in 1904 the Tower Hamlet Volunteers went over to the Royal Fusiliers.

The Territorial Force was organized in 1908, and, whatever other advantages there may have been, the new scheme certainly did not make for closer co-operation between The Rifle Brigade and their old friends the Volunteers. For the latter were all merged into the London Regiment. They were removed from the corps of The Rifle Brigade in which they had been since 1882, and placed in a seperate part of the Army List. That this was a severance in the letter only, and not in the spirit, is well known, for the permament staff remained with the battalion and in many cases went with them to war. Actually, at the outbreak of war, four officers of the Regiment were Territorial Adjutants.

In 1916 the pendulum began to swing back, and a new Corps Warrant was issued, in which many old friends with new numbers returned officially to the corps of The Rifle Brigade, viz:-

8th Bn. London Regiment (Post Office Rifles)

10th Bn. London Regimen (Hackney)

17th Bn. London Regiment (Popular & Stepney)

18th Bn. London Regiment (London Irish)

19th Bn. London Regiment (St. Pancras)

25th Bn. London Regiment (Cyclists)

28th Bn. London Regiment (Artists)

The 19th was entered in error as it was shown, rightly, as belonging to the Middlesex Regiment elsewhere in the same order, and later in the year the London Irish went to the Royal Irish Rifles.

There was no change till 1922 when the Post Officer Rifles were amalgamated with the 7th London and the Cyclists disbanded, but in 1926, when the last Corps Warrant was issued, the London Rifle Brigade after fifty years returned to alliance with the Regiment, a most welcome event. Then, in 1930, the 10th Bn. London Regiment (Hackney) left the corps of The Rifle Brigade for the Royal Berkshire Regiment. Though we are sorry to lose them, it must be admitted that their drill and traditions are more those of a line regiment, which makes the change not unreasonable.

At present time, the adjutancies of all the affiliated Battalions, besides that of the 12th Battalion (Rangers) which belongs to the 60th, are held by officers of the Regiment, while the great majority or permamentr staff of these battalions is also found by the Regiment.

[MBrockway]

Andy,

That's excellent info! Many thanks.

I've now gone through all the Great War KRRC Chronicles and there are definitely no articles about the territorial battalions

I meant to put in the Gordon Highlanders-London Scottish connection earlier - I know the London Scottish sent volunteers to the Gordons in the Boer War rather than to the 60th or RB. But then I know in WW2 the Liverpool Scottish sent drafts to the QOCH rather than their affiliated regiment the King's Liverpools, so things are not always what they seem!

Clearly the London Scottish-Gordons makes more sense, as does the London Irish-Royal Irish Rifles link.

I have a few unit histories for these London rifles units and there's a good sprinkling of both 60th and Rifle Brigade regulars posted as adjutants, RSMs etc.

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Mark,

Funny that they are not mentioned, mind you the KRRC Chronicles for the 14-18 period were written after the war. Also come across something else the the KRRC Chronicles do not mention. In the Boer War the KRRC & RB men that were due to go to their battalions in Ladysmith when the Siege started were formed into Provisional Rifle Battalions, the RB Chronicles has quite a bit about them but the KRRC Chronicles has nothing whatsoever.

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Mark,

Meant to add also, I don't know if you have all the KRRC Chronicles?? but in the RB Chronicles you will find articles and personal accounts all the way up to 1964 when they become the RGJ, and one or two after that in the late 60's, for example the details and the story of the 18th - 25th RB's appear in the 1927 Chronicle and the Bridgeman piece placed here came from the 1932 Chronicle.

As an extra Michael Haines produced a bibliography of books concerning the Rifle Brigade where it lists all the articles and pictures in the Chronicles from 1890 to 1964 and then into the RGJ Chronicles. In the last Chronicle of each decade there is also a list of the pieces in each Chronicle for the past decade, both these are extremely useful for locating pieces concerning WW1.

The RB Journal is also a valuable resource sometimes as the veterans faded away, with pieces concerning their service in them.

Andy

[MBrockway]

Mark,

(numbering added by Mark when replying!)

1. Meant to add also, I don't know if you have all the KRRC Chronicles??
2. As an extra Michael Haines produced a bibliography of books concerning the Rifle Brigade where it lists all the articles and pictures in the Chronicles from 1890 to 1964 and then into the RGJ Chronicles.
3. In the last Chronicle of each decade there is also a list of the pieces in each Chronicle for the past decade, both these are extremely useful for locating pieces concerning WW1.
4. The RB Journal is also a valuable resource sometimes as the veterans faded away, with pieces concerning their service in them.

Andy

Andy - good suggestions here!

1. I wish!! I only have the 1914-1918 and 1919 KRRC Chronicles. I keep an eye out in secondhand bookshops, but prices on #Bay or over the Internet are usually rather too high!! I quite often bid, but the lot usually goes past my ceiling pretty quickly. I've been trying to get the Hereward Wake/Bill Deedes WW2 KRRC book for two years and been outbid on at least ten separate occasions!
2. Michael's bibliography is on my target list - should be useful to me for the RGJ references let alone the earlier RB stuff! Do you know of anything similar covering the KRRC??
3. That is VERY useful to know, I shall move the 1920, 1930 etc. volumes up the target list. Can you confirm that the KRRC Chronicle definitely follows the same practice?
4. I have a few recent copies of the KRRC Association Journal, which do have some good stuff about the WW1 VC awards. I contacted the KRRC Association enquiring as to whether the Association was restricted to former members of the Regiment, and whether, as the grandson of a Rifleman, I would be eligible to join. Got nothing back :-( I didn't even get a reply about how to contribute to the Rifleman's Aid Society! Mr Baker has a very old Post here on the Forum offering info about the KRRC Association and I PM-ed him on the back of that, but never got a reply - not surprisingly considering the sheer volume of c**p Chris must get arriving in his PM Inbox!! From your knowledge of the RB, can you give me advice re whether I could join the KRRC Association???

I was hoping to have a good rummage in the Museum Library to see what sort of regimental reference material is available when I finally get my long postponed trip to Winchester organised, but from what I've heard I won't be holding my breath on that one!

Many thanks for the suggestions!

Cheers,

Mark

[Steven Broomfield]

For what it's worth, Ray Westlake's book on the Volunteers identifies a lot of regimental affiliations and post-1908 titles; I find that quite useful.

As an aside (and since they were mentioned), the Liverpool Scottish (10th Battalion, The King's Regiment) swapped to be a battalion of the Cameron Highlanders inter-war. I believe the affiliation of the London Scottish with the Gordon Highlanders was confirmed at the same time. Certainly they became The London Scottish, The Gordon Highlanders, at some point between the wars.

[stiletto_33853]

Steven,

A good reference book and Michael Haines used part of it and referred to it in his booklet on the Militia, Volunteer and Territorial Regiments - The Middlesex Volunteer Rifle Corps of 1989, placing part of it in his Annex B.

Mark,

The Chronicles are invaluable and a great resource. I too only have the WW1 period ones for the KRRC so cannot comment on if there is a guide at the end of each decade, but have the lot for the RB from 1890 to 2002 and am always delving into them as a guide/reference source. You will find that Michaels bibliography mainly deals with the RB as you would expect, I will e-mail you off forum re. this bibliography.

As you say do not hold your breath too much re your visit to Winchester, I am afraid that I have had a very varied assistance level from there with an attitude of "what can you do for us" predominating any contact with them. The last Colonel that was there, before the incumbent Major of today, was ex KRRC and was somewhat indifferent to enquiries re the RB, but was quick to come yelling when he needed information from some of the rarer material that I have ammassed over the years. I would dearly love them to open up more but feel that it would need to be run more by civilians (such as the Hampshire Regiment museum close by) before this will happen.

Andy

[andyspiller]

Andy

Interesting that you do not think much of the guys in Winchester .

I have been twice, once to visit the museum (which was not much help), but the 2nd time I arranged to be let behind the scenes (actually into the archive) and was allowed to rumage thorugh the twelve archive boxes of the QVR records at my leisure. Mjr Cassidy could not have been more helpful.

Rgds

Andy

[Kevcckb]

Sorry I very new to the First war.i was looking for info on 1st/20th London Reg,did they have more to the name?

[MBrockway]

Sorry I very new to the First war.i was looking for info on 1st/20th London Reg,did they have more to the name?

Google is your friend ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Battalion,_London_Regiment_%28Blackheath_and_Woolwich%29