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Remembered Today:

Who do you think you are?


Seadog
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Like Pighills, I couldn't resist looking up where Crouch is buried.

I was in Bedford House last Saturday morning. I would have stopped at his grave, had I known.

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On my next visit across (whenever that may be) I have Bedford House Cemetery on my list to visit - one of 'my men' being there.

I will also visit Major Crouch and pay my respects.

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I tend to think there is too much 'colourisation' of attitudes to 'shell shock' ... I have loads of references to ss in old newspapers of the period. There is no tinge of 'cowardice', 'malingering' or 'weakness' ... the accounts read exactly the same as for some guy who was physically wounded. That's my impression.

Des

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Bedford House is an interesting cemetery to visit (aren't they all?) There is a little bit of the original house remaining, along with most of the moat. It is laid out in a number of areas, including a small number of WW2.

I took 20 young ladies there on Saturday, and got them each to pick a grave to which to read Vera Brittan's poem written after the death of Ronald Leighton, her fiancee. Having done so, they took note of the name on the headstone to go back to school and research "their" soldier.

To make the research a bit more interesting, between them they picked upon a couple of Australians, an unknown, and a mix of infantry and artillery. I hope their History teacher finds the results of interest.

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I tend to think there is too much 'colourisation' of attitudes to 'shell shock' ... I have loads of references to ss in old newspapers of the period. There is no tinge of 'cowardice', 'malingering' or 'weakness' ... the accounts read exactly the same as for some guy who was physically wounded. That's my impression.

Des

I agree with Des. Reading period newspaper accounts, the shell shocked soldiers were described as if they were physically wounded, and urged to get better soon, without any snide remarks about their condition. There is a slightly different definition to be seen as well. One soldier wrote home from hospital explaining that he was hurled to the ground by a shell blast, and 'was now suffering from shell-shock'. At the same time, the psychological injuries which we today associate with ss was also described in an honourable way in the later stages of the war.

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She is a "butchers dog". Or, at least, a woman with some similarities, IMO.

Such matters greatly added to my personal enjoyment of the programme.

Mt Hartley

I agree totaly in your appreciation of the person concerned.

Bob Grundy

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Dave Mruk, sometime member of this forum provided me with the only known photograph of my Granddad in uniform. It was a group photo of some 14 men under the caption 'The Gallant Wounded of the 8th Battalion Leeds Rifles'.

The date of the photo loosely corresponds with an entry in my granddads service record which states he was suffering with shell shock.

Not one of the men in the photo wears a bandage, so I assume that all the men were suffering from Shell Shock.

So, we have men who were probably Shell Shocked being described as 'Gallant Wounded'.

That is more in line with Des' and Geraint's statements than the 'popular' attitude of the Shell Shocked being shirkers.

Cheers,

Nigel

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Many men described as "shell-shocked" in Army records and subsequently the press, were actually suffering from what we would describe as concussion these days, rather than a PTSD. Geraint's soldier sounds like he would have had a rather severe case of concussion after his escape...

Steve.

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You're probably right Steve, but the term used was 'shell shocked'. If I recall he was also deaf; though I may be confusing him with another 'local boy with shock'. It may well, from 1916 onwards, have had a multi meaning definition, all of them being heroic wounds and never used derogatorily. As a point of interest, the terms appears in common parlance as of the Somme Offensive. I haven't noticed it in newspaper usage prior to that.

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"Butcher's dog" Never come across that expression before. Is it a polite one to describe a lady thus?

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"Butcher's dog" Never come across that expression before. Is it a polite one to describe a lady thus?

Well I wouldn't be pleased! :o

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"Butcher's dog" Never come across that expression before. Is it a polite one to describe a lady thus?

The expression is "as fit as a butcher's dog" and used to mean someone who exercised a lot. I think the idea was that a butcher's dog was always well-fed but with the shift in the usage of fit to mean attractive it's inevitably come to mean that, too. I don't think you'd want to tell a lass she's a butcher's dog unless you like having your face slapped, though.... ;)

Keith

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Now don’t all start jumping up and down and getting over excited but can anyone confirm or otherwise the statement made in the prog that “The medical records of Officers who suffered from shell-shock were destroyed to save any embarrassment”. I am beginning to think that intimate dissection of the statements made in this prog could keep the forum going for months!

Norman

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IMO that statement is complete, unfounded, cobblers.

I found most of Ms Bruce's programme rather interesting, but the treatment of the shellshock and death of poor old Major Crouch very poor.

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Thanks Chris for that full and frank reply. My feelings as well. All of this would of course not matter if it were not for the fact that this very popular programme was being broadcast nationwide and repeated. It would come as no surprise to me if these so-called facts were then accepted as truth by the general public. Something went badly wrong with the part of the prog dealing with Crouch and was in my opinion not up to the standard we expect from the BBC.

Norman

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I enjoyed the programme very much. Little keeps me watching tv for an hour or so apart from cricket. I think Fiona came across very well and as well as a gal easy on the eye seemed a polite humble person. The WW1 part was as well put together as it could possibly be and if there was a little guess work to fill in the gaps , well she wouldn`t be the first.

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IThe WW1 part was as well put together as it could possibly be and if there was a little guess work to fill in the gaps , well she wouldn`t be the first.

The problem is that "a little guess work" becomes accepted as fact and in this case did a disservice to the memory of Major Crouch. I do not believe that Ms Bruce was responsible for the comments she made on the subject so someone advising her was grossly misinformed.

Norman

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Is it a polite one to describe a lady thus?

One of admiration and certainly not intended to be impolite. A very common expression in my part of the world used by common men like me. Hopefully my use of it hasnt offended too many people too much.

John

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Not at all John. Here, refering to someone as a 'butcher's dog' is to imply a shifty, untrustworthy nature. Ie the butcher's dog pretends to be asleep whilst the butcher's in the shop, but when the man goes out thinking that the said hound is fast asleep, the dog gets up and nicks the beef! Sorry - very off topic.

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Best part was seeing some footage of the lovely village of Hopeman where I spent many a happy holiday as a teenager - ah happy days!

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I think the Hopeman footage was original, but the modern computer era practice of turning modern footage into black and white and sticking some grainy stuff over it is starting to turn me into a cynic....

Steve.

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Best part was seeing some footage of the lovely village of Hopeman where I spent many a happy holiday as a teenager - ah happy days!

baz

was that with a buckie and spade or just the buckie :lol:;)

tafski

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Yeah right Bruce - a fine, young, upstanding gentleman like myself indulging in under-age drinking - I think not! :rolleyes:

The black and white footage was great to see and I hope it was original - I had seen a few old photographs of Hopeman on Scran, but the footage was new to me.

My main gripe about this (and other similar progs) is that they take out all the hard graft put in by librarians and archivists in finding the materials in the first place - they often give a false impression of how these places work.

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