J K Rowling

[towisuk]

The Paris suburb where her Great Grandfather was buried in the communal grave in Maison Lafitte, is where I reckon to spend a week almost every year when visiting Paris.....

I noticed the communal grave lid had a paddlock on it, so must still be in use if its not sealed...anyway, another must do next time I'm based over there, visit the communal cemetery...just to see if Ms Rowling has had any small memorial to her relative mounted...

regards

Tom

[grantowi]

Did i get it wrong? After all, how could someone with 40% disability rise to the top of his profession at the Savoy?

That was the chap who had the same name as Gramps, who "only" suffered wounds to his arm and side

I agree that the final resting place is sad, but then, after selling 400 million books, couldn't JK afford DNA testing of the remains in the communal grave, and so be able to rebury her hero grandfather?

She did mention it and even asked how many bodies were in the grave. when told it was an unknown amount, she said it would be unfeasable to seperate out his remains

Grant

[Rockdoc]

I was a bit disappointed they didn't make more of his military ID card when he was an interpreter. His rank was given as Brigadier - which I believe isn't directly equivalent to ours but still a significant rank - and it had a number of stamps that were headed APM and with what appeared to be references to British Divisions. I would have liked to hear how he rose from the RIT to such a role.

Keith

[TheDukes]

I was a bit disappointed they didn't make more of his military ID card when he was an interpreter. His rank was given as Brigadier - which I believe isn't directly equivalent to ours but still a significant rank - and it had a number of stamps that were headed APM and with what appeared to be references to British Divisions. I would have liked to hear how he rose from the RIT to such a role.

Keith

I was under the impression that brigadier was used by the gendarmerie in France and was not an army rank ? might be wrong though

A very interesting 'who do you think you are' ...but the cynic in me was amazed that someone with a good knowledge of the French language knew so little about French History..or was th at for the benefit of the TV audience.

[delta]

I can agree with most of the comments: Joanne Rowling's fluency in French was remarkable; that it seemed the split of the family was overplayed; that the French army records were (sadly not followed up and that she did seem to burst into tears a lot (which did annoy Kate and me).

The remarkable thing for us is that the family had never (apparently) traced Louis before - or was it that he was considered invisible because he ahd abandoned the family/.

The programme did manage to achieve the BBC's three mission (Inform, educate and entertain) as I want to know more -

what was Salome Schuch's family background (German I assume)

how many protestant churches are in Alsace - never realized it had a large non-Catholic community

when did the French take over Brumath - the town's architecture is clearly Germanic

Must have been a good programme after all!

[healdav]

I was under the impression that brigadier was used by the gendarmerie in France and was not an army rank ? might be wrong though

A very interesting 'who do you think you are' ...but the cynic in me was amazed that someone with a good knowledge of the French language knew so little about French History..or was th at for the benefit of the TV audience.

In the Gendarmerie the grade "brigadier" is the equivalent of constable. It is possible that Louis was either not in the army or was seconded to the Gendarmerie as I have quite a lot of interpreters among th people I have been researching and they all have army ranks given.

Incidentally, the title is not pronounced brigadierr as in English, but brigAdié - or brigAdiay.

I would think that he non-knowledge of French history was probably for the benefit of the ignorant British, most of whom will never have studied any European history at all (or British come to that).

[Seadog]

Regret that following the second or third outburst of sobbing I could not watch anymore of this somewhat highly strung and annoying individual. On another point why is this programme infatuated with “celebrities”? As Ian Hislop proved a few years ago with his excellent series, Not Forgotten that so-called ordinary peoples lives have as much relevance and in most cases are much more interesting than those chosen for these programmes. It seems to me that this series is well past its sell by date.

Norman

[roughdiamond]

I was a bit disappointed they didn't make more of his military ID card when he was an interpreter.

Keith

I'm with you on that one Keith, the ID card was clearly for later in the War, although the camera didn't linger, there were definately Divisional numbers on the APM stamps in it. The Units also clearly stated "RE HQ" and "Rear Area", I reckon more could have been made of it (Maybe there was but it's only a 1hr programme).

One thing also stuck out for me even though it only got the briefest of mentions, the narrator said "He (her Gt Gt Granny Salome's brother) was forced to fight for the German Army". I'm certain that the old German Soldier whom Harry Patch met in a TV programme when he went to France was from either Alsace or Lorraine and even though he'd been in the German Army, his Son/Sons had been in the French Army in WW2.

Nothing was made of that, again a bit anti-Germanic, I'm sure there must be a few cases in those areas where a Grandad fought for France in the Franco - Prussian War, his Son for Germany in WW1 and the Grandson for France in WW2.

Really enjoyed the programme and she didn't really annoy me, I managed through the episodes with Chris Moyles and even more grating one with Kim Cattrall so last nights was a doddle.

I hope Ms Rowling uses some of her huge wealth to identify her Gt Granddads remains, although since he's been in there since 1968, I doubt it's doable unless the remains were boxed.

Sam

[towisuk]

I feel that too much is being made of J K bursting into tears at intervals, everyone is different, some have feelings that they are not afraid to show through tears etc, others are made of harder stuff and cannot imagine or empathise with others problems....

So why should we castigate J K being one that has "feelings".....is this the society we want...

regards

Tom

[Seadog]

Certainly a point of view Tom though personally I thought it a waste of time and about as interesting as watching paint dry. The dear old BBC always seems to fall into the same trap of keeping a once successful formula going until as in this case it is done to death. My (what more!) other problem with the concept is that it gives a false impression of the way that the genealogical information can be found, using as it must teams of researchers and expensive jetting around the Globe at the licence-payers expense plus providing a free holiday for the so-called celebrities who can on cue produce outbursts of emotions to satisfy the formulaic character of the series. All I am sad to say now wearing a bit thin!

Norman

[roughdiamond]

Sorry Norman, got to disagree, the programme makes it clear that researchers and local experts do the work.

Anyway, discussing the entertainment value of the programme is a bit off topic for the "Soldiers" forum.

Sam

[kevmc]

I feel that too much is being made of J K bursting into tears at intervals, everyone is different, some have feelings that they are not afraid to show through tears etc, others are made of harder stuff and cannot imagine or empathise with others problems....

So why should we castigate J K being one that has "feelings".....is this the society we want...

regards

Tom

From my point of view it wasn't the emotion shown that irritated. Having watched a number of these programmes, particularly Rolf Harris', I also feel the emotion.

On this occasion it was the endless "Wow's" and similar over the top reactions that didn't help with my viewing.

Kevin

[GrahamC]

Certainly a point of view Tom though personally I thought it a waste of time and about as interesting as watching paint dry. The dear old BBC always seems to fall into the same trap of keeping a once successful formula going until as in this case it is done to death. My (what more!) other problem with the concept is that it gives a false impression of the way that the genealogical information can be found, using as it must teams of researchers and expensive jetting around the Globe at the licence-payers expense plus providing a free holiday for the so-called celebrities who can on cue produce outbursts of emotions to satisfy the formulaic character of the series. All I am sad to say now wearing a bit thin!

Norman

We were discussing this yesterday - having watched the programme - and came to the conclusion that there isn't much entertainment value in watching someone sit at home in their office clicking on 'Ancestry'!

As for the tears - well I visited two great-uncles' graves a few weeks ago that I had only discovered via the aforementioned search engine and although I didn't even know of their existence until recently also shed a few - and I'm a hardened 'northerner' - or is it because I'm one??

Interesting though - can't remember any other WDYTYA episode generating this much traffic.

[unitedsound]

It's a real surprise to me that anyone interested in the Great War could switch off because of a few WOWS/OMGS and even more sadly TEARS.

WDYTYA is a wonderful programme, responsible for bringing thousands of people into the rewarding world of Family Research and, in my case, opening my mind to the tragedy of the Great War.

Thanks for sharing JKR.

David

ps Merci Louis Volant

[healdav]

One thing also stuck out for me even though it only got the briefest of mentions, the narrator said "He (her Gt Gt Granny Salome's brother) was forced to fight for the German Army". I'm certain that the old German Soldier whom Harry Patch met in a TV programme when he went to France was from either Alsace or Lorraine and even though he'd been in the German Army, his Son/Sons had been in the French Army in WW2.

Nothing was made of that, again a bit anti-Germanic, I'm sure there must be a few cases in those areas where a Grandad fought for France in the Franco - Prussian War, his Son for Germany in WW1 and the Grandson for France in WW2.

Not "a few"; tens of thousands.

[mhifle]

Hi,

The ID Card looks like,

Mission Militaire Francais

Attachee

A L'Armee Britannique

Interprete

Issued 19 Feb 1918

R.E. HQ.

2nd Army Back Area Stamped 10 June 1918

Regards Mark

[mhifle]

2

[bob lembke]

On the military side of matters, his unit was a "territorial" one and it was explained they would have guarded bridges, etc. So, in the French army, does that mean territorials were similar to British garrison battalions?

No, the Territorials were a reserve and were older soldiers, but they were at the front fighting along with the "line" regiments. But of course they usually were not quite as effective. But I don't know the details of the French reserve system. The Germans had four grades of reservists, Reserve, Landwehr 1st Grade, Landwehr 2nd Grade, and Landsturm. The latter generally guarded bridges and POWs and didn't make it to the actual front, except for the Eastern Front, where the opposition was not as keen. The French seemed to be more jumbled together, but it could just be my ignorance. But I have read 286 French unit histories, and there were lots of RIT (Regiment d'Infantrie Territoriale) in the heavy fighting.

Bob Lembke

[mhifle]

Hi,

This was from his service record.

Regards Mark

[bob lembke]

Wasn't it nice to see someone well educated from "our side" of the channel, being able to converse with our French friends in THEIR native language...

regards

Tom

There is the persistant rumor of the "English gene", which blocks proficiency in other languages. (My wife is proof that this is only a rumor.) My father came out of secondary school speaking six languages, but he was educated in Prussia. Five were learned at school, he picked up conversational Russian in a number of trips to Russia, traveling by himself as a school-boy, before WW I.

Bob

[bob lembke]

QUOTE: " territorials were similar to British garrison battalions? "

I think the programme did explain that their territorials were of riper years and were for local defence. More LDV/Home Guard than our own TF/TA.

I have also read this in WW1 histories but cannot quote a reference.

D

I have read many French sources on their fighting, and it seems that about half the units at the front in the thick of the fighting, say at Verdun, were RIT (Regiment d'infantrie Territoriale).

Bob

[towisuk]

Mark, some nice work with the photo's taken from the TV programme mate, well done....

regards

Tom

[bob lembke]

I was a bit disappointed they didn't make more of his military ID card when he was an interpreter. His rank was given as Brigadier - which I believe isn't directly equivalent to ours but still a significant rank - and it had a number of stamps that were headed APM and with what appeared to be references to British Divisions. I would have liked to hear how he rose from the RIT to such a role.

Keith

I was puzzled in the past to see the rank of "brigadier", but in the French and Belgian Armies it was the term for a Sergeant of Artillery, not an officer, certainly not a general. In the past year I have read and in part translated perhaps 100 books and articles in French on the fighting in Belgium and France in 1914 (although I am really working on the German side.) I was puzzled about, in a book he wrote about the siege of his fort, a Belgian fort commander, a major, kept referring to a 20 year old "brigadier" in his garrison. So I looked into it. (I have a French-English military dictionary.)

Bob

[bob lembke]

I have studied the fighting for Fort Vaux in 1916 in considerable detail, and it was astonishingly brutal, even by the standards of WW I and Verdun. (My father was wounded there twice.) The French made a great effort to reach and relieve the fort at about that time, and probably lost several times as many men as the size of the garrison, but never got too close; carrying in grenades was quite an adventure. As the Germans slowly fought down the corridors, a meter or two at a time, they blocked all air shafts and windows they could reach with sand-bags, and occasionally pulled out a few sand-bags and fired a flame-thrower into the interior, or fired in poison and tear gasses, and then quickly blocked the hole again. And the interior of the fort had giant ill-maintained latrines and cess-pools. The air was so bad and so thin of oxygen that finally the French kerosine lanterns for light would not burn any more. And the concrete water tanks had been, unknown to the French, cracked by prior hits by 420 mm howitzers, and the water drained out, and one day the garrison, living in that hell-hole, found that they had no water. (The commander had about 300 garrison, but also about 300 stragglers who over time had taken refuge in the fort as well; they really were not interested in the fighting and defense. but certainly were interested in rations and water.)

When the French finally surrendered and marched out of the fort, the Germans offered them military honors, present arms, salutes, etc., but were horrified when the French ignored the military honors and rushed past them and threw themselves down, licking mud outside the fort for some trace moisture.

The Crown Prince, Army Commander at Verdun, invited Commandant Reynal to dinner, for his brave defense. (Raynal, who complained about everything, admitted in his memoires that "little Willy"s French was absolutely fluent, the Prussian royal family were tri-lingual, fluent in German, French, and English.) The Crown Prince wanted to restore Reynal's sword at the dinner, but they could not find it, and instead presented Reynal with an engineer's tool as a substitute. (Reynal had never had a sword at Fort Vaux.) Then the Crown Prince gave him the right to carry his pistol while in German captivity. He was rejoined with his personal servant, to take into captivity to serve him, and his own dog was restored to him, and finally so much cake to take with him that Reynal was forced to feed the cake to his dog. At the end of the meal he staggered off with his presents, but was called back; the Crown Prince had his HQ searched, and they found a French officer's sword, and "gave it back" to Reynal, so he went off into captivity carrying a sword and a pistol. And then in a while he was transferred to "captivity" in Switzerland. And still Reynal complained in his memoires about his treatment at the hands of the Germans.

The story of the siege and capture of Fort Vaux is remarkable.

Bob

[dycer]

Bob,

It is unfortunate that you cannot access "BBC iPLAYER" from the States as you should watch the programme and appreciate its settings.

I did become a little cheesed off with "Jo" when as an Author/Teacher she did not know that Alsace/Lorraine had passed between France and Germany,in the 19th Century,and men from Alsace and Lorraine,fought for Germany in WW1 although their hearts told them they were French.I've met such a French Family visiting and paying their respects to a fallen German Soldier,beside a CWGC Cemetery in France and was privileged to talk them,whether they understood my French is open to debate.

J.K. Rowling is in the public eye because of her brain.I doubt when she penned the first "Harry Potter" Novel she ever appreciated its appeal.

But it was nice just to see her as an "ordinary person"(I have not read her books nor appreciate their clamour) and her "playing to the cameras" because none of us know what may spring out of her fertile imagination.

George