huwrevans Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 Hi, Appologies for my ignorance. Could the experts out there provide some information on a shell case that has come into my posssession. My grandfather was in the RFA though believed to be 122 (Howitzer) Bde. Would I be right in thinking this is an 18 pounder case? Can the marks on the bottom shed more light on it's origin etc? Can anyone explain the different markings on the case and the fuse please? It's approx 11 1/2" long, Base diameter 4", top diameter 3 1/2 Thanks in advance for any help. Huw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 I am not an expert in artillery shells or their fabrication, but a few points are obvious from the photo you have posted. It is an 18 pdr cartridge case - Mark II, which was designed as an improvement on the Mark I to ease extractions and therefore reduce wear and speed up firing. It is fitted with a No1 percussion primer, Mark II, which screwed into the base and which seems to date to February 1917. The later marks (II and beyond) had a ball-type fitting between the percussion cap and the main primer charge, which blew back, forming a gas tight seal and so prevented the loss of propellant gases on firing. It appears that it was filled in June 1916. The letter F means that it contained a full charge of cordite - hence the C. The use of F, as opposed to R (reduced charge) means that it had been refilled fewer than 6 times. In fact I think that it only has one F, suggesting that it was used once only The lot number and the initials of the company that made it are there so as to ease tracing its manufacture in the case of defects. I think that S stands for the partiuclar filling station involved. I am afraid that this is only a partial interpretation, but I am sure that someone will be able to fill in all the gaps. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 I will decipher as much as I can for you. As Jack says, the case is an 18 Pdr. Mark II. Starting with the primer: No.1 Mark II is the primer type P.B & Co. are the maufacturers, Platt Bros. of Oldham. 1/17 is the manufacturing date. 2/17 is the filling date. 991 is probably the lot number. For the case itself: ALCO is the manufacturer, the American Locomotive Company or one of its subsidiaries. 6/16 date of manufacture CF is Cordite full charge LOT 610 is obviously the Lot number. S. means the case has been scleroscoped (a test of the strength of the metal) I cannot help with the other marks, although I think I have the meaning of the XX somewhere. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huwrevans Posted 6 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2009 Thank you both. The knowledge of the forum pals never ceases to amaze me. All the best Huw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 Tony Very interesting additional information. I was unaware of strength testing. For some reason I thought that the primary inspection was visual to check for bulges or cracks. It seems to have a 'U' on its side as well. What do you make of that? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 Not sure about the "U". I will check the various manuals. If you google "scleroscopy" there is lots of info on the technique. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 6 February , 2009 Share Posted 6 February , 2009 The basic difference between the MI and MKII primer is that in the MKI the percussion cap was pressed into a cap chamber which was resessed in the base. In the MKII the percussion cap was placed internally in the primer and held in place by the anvil plug. See Drawings John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huwrevans Posted 7 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2009 Thanks again. One other question that you may be able to help with. As stated at the top my granfather was in 122 (Howitzer) Bde RFA. I presume those we 4.5" guns. What sort of shell casing would they have? I've seen pictures of the shells on the web but the cases I've see seem small/short. Appologies for my ignorance in this matter. Huw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 7 February , 2009 Share Posted 7 February , 2009 This is a Photograph of a 4.5in Cartridge Case with chargenbags filled mwith an inert filler. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 7 February , 2009 Share Posted 7 February , 2009 Thanks again. One other question that you may be able to help with. As stated at the top my granfather was in 122 (Howitzer) Bde RFA. I presume those we 4.5" guns. What sort of shell casing would they have? I've seen pictures of the shells on the web but the cases I've see seem small/short. Appologies for my ignorance in this matter. Huw Hello - Huw - The cases for the 4.5-n howitzer WERE short. The Mark I shell case was only 73mm long and the Mark II shell case was 86mm long. The steel projectiles were not inserted into the brass case but were loaded directly into the howitzer, and then the brass case with charges inserted afterwards. The charges in the brass cases could be adjusted by removing separate bags until the desired increments of explosives remained. [Can some forum member inform me how the gun crews disposed of the unused bagged charges in a safe manner? They would be danberous to leave lying around!] I hope that this information helps. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huwrevans Posted 7 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2009 Thanks for that John, ties up with the images I've seen. I just looks a little short (not enough charge) to propel the shell over such a distance. You can tell I wasn't Arty ! Did the 4.5 shell come already assembled as one item or were the shell and charge put up the breech seperately? Huw Thanks Torrey, Answered my last question just as I posted it. All the best Huw Thanks Torrey, answer cam in as I posted my question. I presume they ould just burn the unused charge bags? all the best Huw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 7 February , 2009 Share Posted 7 February , 2009 The suplus charge bags were burnt, that in its self was a various resposible job. The surplus charge bags could not be used as Lots could not be mixed. The surplus charge bags could not be tossed into a heap and just set alight, there is a set proceedure how they have to be laid out and burnt.If I can remember rightly back about 40 years reading that a cubic centimeter of cordite produces about 1,400 cubic centimeters of gas and a chamber pressure of between 15 to 20 tons psi. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huwrevans Posted 8 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 February , 2009 Hi John, Thanks again. Do you know how many charge bags (maximum) would have been used? Would they have burnt the excess charge bags near the gun lines or taken them back behind the lines? Soldier being soldiers, do you know if they ever 'made use' of these charge bags into IEDs? Regards Huw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 8 February , 2009 Share Posted 8 February , 2009 A lot depends on wind direction where the surplus charge bags are burnt. I would say that the surplus charge bags were never retained to make IEDs. Just as a matter of interest I attach a photograph of a box of 4.5in cartridges dug up near Ypres. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huwrevans Posted 9 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 February , 2009 Thanks John, The reason for asking about IED was from reading about 18 pounders being used as such see http://www.a-w-a.be/eng/index2.html Regards Huw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 9 February , 2009 Share Posted 9 February , 2009 I think they are probably talking about 3" Stokes mortar bombs which were frequently used as improvised large grenades for clearing dugouts. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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