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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Muster Rolls


bobshaw

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Does any one know if after each battle or even when in Billets/Rest areas or before they were relieved etc. there was a Roll Call, if so do these lists still exsist.

We know that the War Diaries very rarely named ordinary soldiers that were wounded or killed, so how did the names get to the respective HQ's then onto the relatives.

I am still trying to find which day my grandfather was critically wounded on, and thought maybe if these lists were still about, it might narrow the time.

Bob

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Hello Bob

Short answer is no, I'm afraid, at least as far as records at Kew are concerned. The regimental museum might have something but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

Casualties were reported to the records office at the base (at Rouen, if we are referring to France) by means of the Weekly Field Return. Every unit sent in one of these every Sunday, detailing the men on its ration strength as at Saturday night, with details of the changes since last week, and the casualty records were updated from these. Unfortunately, these forms haven't survived either: once the details had bveen extracted into individual soldiers' records, the weekly return would have not been needed further.

I assume that you cannot find his service record at Kew? If it still exists (in classes WO363 or WO364) it should have the information you need. Ancestry.co.uk are making these details available online but I don't know how far they have got.

Ron

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Hello Bob

Short answer is no, I'm afraid, at least as far as records at Kew are concerned. The regimental museum might have something but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

Casualties were reported to the records office at the base (at Rouen, if we are referring to France) by means of the Weekly Field Return. Every unit sent in one of these every Sunday, detailing the men on its ration strength as at Saturday night, with details of the changes since last week, and the casualty records were updated from these. Unfortunately, these forms haven't survived either: once the details had bveen extracted into individual soldiers' records, the weekly return would have not been needed further.

I assume that you cannot find his service record at Kew? If it still exists (in classes WO363 or WO364) it should have the information you need. Ancestry.co.uk are making these details available online but I don't know how far they have got.

Ron

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the reply, it was a piece of straw that I was clinging to. I have my grandfathers Service Record, War Diaries for the Regiment, one of the Field Ambulance Units and the Hospital in Rouen for the day he died - he is mentioned in the hospital diary.

What I am trying to find is which day he may have been critically wounded on - The Regimental Archives have him as being wounded on the night of the 2nd Oct 1916 during the time the Line was being Relieved, no documentary evidence to back it up.

From the diaries the attack took place on the 1st Oct at 3.15 pm, the Relief of the line was on the evening of the 2nd, he died in hospial at Rouen (90 miles from the front) at 8.30 am/pm? on the 3rd.

There were several Convoys of sick/wounded arriving at the hospital, 04.30 am on the 2nd, 12.45 am on the 3rd, in theory either of these would be ok, except we have a Field Post Card dated and post marked the 2nd (not in his hand writting). Considering the routine of getting the wounded from the front line to a CC and then the hospital, then the second train would have been a very tight time frame, the first train is ok except he would not have been wounded on the evening of the 2nd, more likely to have been in the initial assualt.

We also have two letters written by the Assistant Matron in the hospital, the first dated the 3rd saying he was in hospital, and the second letter dated the 4th states that he had died on the 3rd.

Thats why I put out the feelers on Muster Calls, if he was on Roll on the morning or evening of the 2nd then we would have a better idea as to when he was wounded.

Kind regards.

Bob

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Hello Bob

If the Asst Matron wrote on the 3rd to say he was in hospital, but not until the 4th that he was dead, this suggests to me that death at 8.30 pm rather than am may be more likely, and this would fit with an ambulance train at 12.45 am. Even a death at 8.30 am could have been from an arrival on the 12.45 train.

However, if he was on the 4.30 am arrival on the 2nd, one might expect the Asst Matron to send the first letter, reporting that he was in hospital, on the 2nd rather than the 3rd.

The only other comment I can usefully make is that a lot of incidental casualties, particularly from snipers, occurred during reliefs. There would be more movement in the trenches and many men, knowing that they were going to the rear, let their concentration drop, with fatal consequences.

Ron

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The Regimental Archives have him as being wounded on the night of the 2nd Oct 1916 during the time the Line was being Relieved, no documentary evidence to back it up. If there is now no evidence, is there any indication as to where they received the information?

Rouen (90 miles from the front) This is not a great distance if travelling by train, even milk trains could do it in a few hours.

1st Oct at 3.15 pm, the Relief of the line was on the evening of the 2nd That gives you a period of 27+ hours in which the wound could have taken place.

There were several Convoys of sick/wounded arriving at the hospital, 04.30 am on the 2nd, 12.45 am on the 3rd, in theory either of these would be ok, except we have a Field Post Card dated and post marked the 2nd (not in his hand writting). Why does the Field Post Card rule out any of these convoys.

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The Regimental Archives have him as being wounded on the night of the 2nd Oct 1916 during the time the Line was being Relieved, no documentary evidence to back it up. If there is now no evidence, is there any indication as to where they received the information?

I have made contact with the Regimental Archives and they cannot find anything as to where the information came from. The Service Record only shows his death.

Rouen (90 miles from the front) This is not a great distance if travelling by train, even milk trains could do it in a few hours.

Fair enough, I was not too sure on what sort of speed could be expected.

It is understood that these trains could hold up to 400 wounded, therefore he would not have just been put on a train a sent to the hospital, it would have taken time to load the train, then going back in time he would probably have been passed through several stages, Regt First Aid, Advanced Field Station, Clearing Station then the train.

The front line was about 7 miles from the Station, if they were able to use the main road then this be have been quicker, but the various Aid Posts were not on the main road and the terrain was not particularly good.

1st Oct at 3.15 pm, the Relief of the line was on the evening of the 2nd That gives you a period of 27+ hours in which the wound could have taken place.

I accept this fact, my doubt is if he was wounded on the evening of the 2nd and he was put on the train arriving at the hospital 12.45 am of the 3rd, how come the Post Card of the 2nd states that he was already in hospital wounded - accepted they were pre printed but the writing is not my grandfathers.

There were several Convoys of sick/wounded arriving at the hospital, 04.30 am on the 2nd, 12.45 am on the 3rd, in theory either of these would be ok, except we have a Field Post Card dated and post marked the 2nd (not in his hand writting). Why does the Field Post Card rule out any of these convoys.

Sorry not very clear, yes the Post Card could quite easily have been sent if he had been on the 4.30 am train of the 2nd, but this would have been too early for him to have been wounded on the evening of the 2nd according to Regt Archives. The train arriving at 12.45 am of the 3rd was too late for a Card to be dated the 2nd.

Another point regarding the Post Card is that it is post marked "Army Post Office" as opposed to "Field Army Post Office".

The first letter that my grandmother received from the Assistant Matron was dated the 3rd Oct - "I deeply regret to tell you that your husband has been dangerously wounded in both legs & his condition is Critical etc".

I wonder if this was written almost as soon as he was admitted, he died on the 3rd at half past eight - no indication of morning or evening.

Thank you for your comments, it has given me other things to think about.

Kind regards.

Bob

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Hello Bob

If the Asst Matron wrote on the 3rd to say he was in hospital, but not until the 4th that he was dead, this suggests to me that death at 8.30 pm rather than am may be more likely, and this would fit with an ambulance train at 12.45 am. Even a death at 8.30 am could have been from an arrival on the 12.45 train.

However, if he was on the 4.30 am arrival on the 2nd, one might expect the Asst Matron to send the first letter, reporting that he was in hospital, on the 2nd rather than the 3rd.

The only other comment I can usefully make is that a lot of incidental casualties, particularly from snipers, occurred during reliefs. There would be more movement in the trenches and many men, knowing that they were going to the rear, let their concentration drop, with fatal consequences.

Ron

Hi Ron,

Your comments make sense and will take them onboard, the only problem is the "Field Service Post Card" stating he was wounded and IN hospital, keeps getting in the way - If he was on the train arriving at 12.45 am on the 3rd how come the card is dated and post marked the 2nd, it is not in his hand writting so we cannot say he was confused over the date.

Your last comment about the movement during the time they were going to the rear, this is a fair comment, again I have a slight problem - if the Battalion was being relieved surely they would have been using the trench system, in this particular theatre there were two trenches going to the rear, one admittingly was only about 600 yards but this joined with the second one which went from Le Sars and down past Martinpuich.

The injuries he received was multiple gun shot wounds to both legs, to me this would indicate machine gun fire, occuring at ground level not in the trench.

Your comments would be very welcome.

Kind regards,

Bob

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Hello Bob

Bearing in mind that the Field Post Card has a relatively small number of pre-printed sentences, it is not impossible that one of his mates, or perhaps the padre with his unit, had his address and sent off the postcard to his relatives as he was being put on the train. Arrival at Rouent 45 minutes after midnight on 3rd implies departure on the 2nd. By the time the postcard arrived he would of course have been "in hospital", had he not died on 3rd.

Not proof of course, but it seems to fit all the known facts.

Ron

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Hello Bob

Bearing in mind that the Field Post Card has a relatively small number of pre-printed sentences, it is not impossible that one of his mates, or perhaps the padre with his unit, had his address and sent off the postcard to his relatives as he was being put on the train. Arrival at Rouent 45 minutes after midnight on 3rd implies departure on the 2nd. By the time the postcard arrived he would of course have been "in hospital", had he not died on 3rd.

Not proof of course, but it seems to fit all the known facts.

Ron

Hi Ron,

Fair do's, it is a strong possibility. At least I know which battle he was in and roughly within 24 hours when he was wounded, the rest will probably remain a mystery. Thanks for your comments they are appreciated.

Regards

Bob

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Bearing in mind that the Field Post Card has a relatively small number of pre-printed sentences, it is not impossible that one of his mates, or perhaps the padre with his unit, had his address and sent off the postcard to his relatives as he was being put on the train. Arrival at Rouent 45 minutes after midnight on 3rd implies departure on the 2nd. By the time the postcard arrived he would of course have been "in hospital", had he not died on 3rd.

I go along with this. A post card maked on 2nd could have been posted at any time between 00.01 and 23.59 (using the 24 hour clock, something not common in WWI). Bob I think that you are trying to be more precise than the people at the time. The writer of the card probably knew that your grandfather would require hospitalisation and that would be the out come of the casualty clearing process. By using a standard card they were convaying to his family this fact without writing too much or running fould of the censors.

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The first letter that my grandmother received from the Assistant Matron was dated the 3rd Oct - "I deeply regret to tell you that your husband has been dangerously wounded in both legs & his condition is Critical etc".

I wonder if this was written almost as soon as he was admitted, he died on the 3rd at half past eight - no indication of morning or evening.

The letter would be written when the Assistant Matron had the oppotunity to fit it around her other duties. When I was nursing that was much more likely to be 8:30PM than AM, especially if they had received a train of patients in the early hours of the morning.

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The first letter that my grandmother received from the Assistant Matron was dated the 3rd Oct - "I deeply regret to tell you that your husband has been dangerously wounded in both legs & his condition is Critical etc".

I wonder if this was written almost as soon as he was admitted, he died on the 3rd at half past eight - no indication of morning or evening.

The letter would be written when the Assistant Matron had the oppotunity to fit it around her other duties. When I was nursing that was much more likely to be 8:30PM than AM, especially if they had received a train of patients in the early hours of the morning.

Thank you for your reply and comments, I feel better now knowing that letters were probably written on an evening, also to get this reply from someone much closer to the medical side and understands what may have been involved.

My most sincere appreciation...............Bob

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  • 2 weeks later...

Glad to help.

I am no expert for the nursing care at the time, but would expect the people in front of the nurse to have taken priority and sorting out a train of arrivals to demand the attention for several hours. Also then nurses were not ruled by targets!

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