centurion Posted 25 January , 2009 Share Posted 25 January , 2009 As I continue to salvage items off my old computer (back up files corrupted -its a slow business). I found this photo in a folder for Cars It shows two senior officers. The file name was British West Indies but the insignia on the car door says New Zealand to me (and the officer's hat says much the same). Any ideas who and where (and what they are doing there?). Incidentally the record on where this came from is corrupted so apologies to any one who has a claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 28 January , 2009 Share Posted 28 January , 2009 I concur with what you have. Possibly someone in the Uniforms sub forum could give more help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 28 January , 2009 Share Posted 28 January , 2009 'Chaytor's Force' (EEF., Sept 19 - Oct 31, 1918) the infantry element included the 1st & 2nd Battalions, British West Indies Regiment while the mounted troops were provided by the Australian & New Zealand Mounted Div (less 1 squadron) The Staff were also provided by the A & NZ M D Could this be the connection between BWI & NZ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 28 January , 2009 Share Posted 28 January , 2009 Michael, do you have more details of 'Chaytor's Force,' please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 28 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2009 I'd be interested to know more - apart from the fact they took part in the battle of Romani there seems very little on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Quote: do you have more details of 'Chaytor's Force,' please? & I'd be interested to know more Here goes then The Australian & New Zealand Mounted Division (often referred to as the Anzac Mounted Division) was formed in March 1916 and commanded by Col. (temp. Major-Gen) Sir Edward Walter Clervaux Chaytor KCMG, CB, psc, ADC It comprised 1st & 2nd Australian LH Brigades and the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade As Centurion has already pointed out they took part in engagements at Romani, Maghdaba, Rafa, 1st ,2nd and 3rd Gaza etc As part of his planning for the ops from 19th September 1918 onwards, Allenby added infantry elements to these mounted units; the 38th & 39th Battalions Royal Fusiliers, 20th Indian Brigade and the 1st & 2nd Battalions British West Indies Regiment These infantry additions also necessitated the dropping of the word 'Mounted' from the title of the division, which now became 'Chaytor's Force' Prior to the onset of Megiddo this force held the eastern end of the British line, including the Ghoraniyeh bridgehead. They were also responsible for the diversionary tactics which helped persuade the enemy that the main thrust of the offensive would be in the east. [no easy task - men marching up and down the Jordan Valley day and night, with day time temps well over a hundred degrees F] The 'Brief Record of Service' in The Advance of the EEF... etc, etc,' HMSO 1919, gives the following Sept 19th: The 2nd British West Indies Regiment captured ridge south of Bakr Ridge, and on the following day 20th: captured Bakr and Chalk Ridges, while the 1st British West Indies Regiment captured Grant Hill and Baghalat, and the Auckland Mounted Rifles seized Kh. Fusail and Tel Sh. edh Dhiab. 22nd: The 38th Battalion Royal Fusiliers advanced to Mankattat el Mallaha and, with the assistance of two companies of the 39th Battalion captured the ford at Umm esh Shert Further north the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade captured El Makhruk and Abd el Kadir, taking 500 prisoners including a Divisional Commander, and blocking the important road via the bridge at Jisr ed Damieh, between Nablus, west of the Jordan, and Es Salt on the east. The bridge itself was captured by the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade and the 1st British West Indies Regiment. 1st Light Horse Brigade and 2nd British West Indies Regiment were engaged near Mafid Jozeleh 23rd: All enemy opposition ceased on west bank of Jordan East Of Jordan Sept 22nd: The 2nd LH Brigade captured Tel er Rame, a Turkish strong post seven miles south-east of the Ghoraniyeh bridge 23rd: The 1st Light Horse, with 2nd British West Indies Regiment captured Mafid Jozeleh and the 2nd LH took Kabr Mujahid, while the New Zealand Mounted Rifles, having crossed the Jordan, pushed rapidly eastward and seized Es Salt 24th: Ain es Sir and Ain Hemar occupied by 2nd LH 25th: The Auckland Mounted Rifles succeeded in cutting the Hedjaz Railway near Kalaatez Zerka and the 2nd LH and NZMR Brigades and the 1st ALH Regt captured Amman, the Canterbury Mounted Rifles taking a prominent part in this latter engagement 26th The 1st LH captured Kalaat ez Zerka and the 2nd LH cut the railway north of Ziza Station 27th 1st LH engaged a body of the enemy north of Wadi el Hammam, taking 300 prisoners and three machine guns 29th: The Maan garrison consisting of 4,066 officers and men with twelve guns and thirty-five machine guns surrendered to the 2nd LH Brigade near El Kastal Etc Etc At the end of the campaign Chaytor's men had captured something like 10,000 prisoners, 55 guns, 169 machine guns and about 800 tons of ammunition The OH has much more detail, as indeed does 'The Desert Mounted Corps in Palestine & Syria 1917-1918' There is a lovely postscript to the tales of Chaytor's Force; an incident when our own and Turkish Troops were shoulder to shoulder against our (sometime) allies From 'Forgotten Soldiers of the First World War' by David R. Woodward "On September 28, cavalrymen discovered a Red Crescent train near Amman at Qal'at el Mafraq. The sick and wounded had been killed and the trains looted by the local Arabs. The next day, the 5th Australian Light Horse encountered the Mann garrison fleeing north. When Chaytor arrived on the scene, he observed several thousand Arabs from the Beni Sakhr tribe, most of them on foot, 'all round the Turkish position and they were being incited to rush & kill the Turks.' The Turks wanted to surrender, but according to Chaytor, they 'were not willing to give up their arms until a force sufficient to protect them against the Arabs was available.' When Brigadier General G. de L. Ryrie, the commander of the 2nd ALH arrived, Chaytor left him in charge with the words 'The jobs yours Ryrie do whatever you think best.' Chaytor then visited with a representative from the Beni Sakhr tribe and told him that he 'would exact severe reprisals for any attack on the Turks who were my prisoners.' Meanwhile, Ryrie, a former heavyweight boxer with a rough-and-ready manner, took a gamble that could have destroyed his career. The Australian commander let the Turks keep their guns for their own protection. The night passed with some bizarre scenes. The Australians camped with their enemy, shared their campfires, and cheered them on when they repulsed attacks by the Arabs. 'Go on, Jacko' they shouted. 'Give it to the blighters.' * The next morning as they marched off for Amman, Ryrie allowed the Anatolian Turks among the prisoners to retain their rifles and bandoliers. According to his (Ryrie's) account, 'General Chaytor nearly had a fit when these fine Troops marched into Amman fully armed.' * The DMC history has "Under the supervision of our officers, they entrenched a line of outpost positions round the station, and these positions were then held by our men and their Turkish prisoners side by side! The Arabs made several attempts to rush the lines during the night, but were driven off by British and Turkish machine-gun and rifle fire." I hope that this is of some help regards Michael ps: after the war Chaytor went on to command the NZ Defence Force 1919-1924 He retired in 1931, and died in 1939 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Cent Could that be Chaytor in your photograph? to compare see http://warart.archives.govt.nz/files/image...41.preview.jpeg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Cent Could that be Chaytor in your photograph? to compare see http://warart.archives.govt.nz/files/image...41.preview.jpeg Only if he had started dying his moustache by the time the portrait was painted! The man in the photo has a longer white (or grey) one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Artistic license? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Or flattery - painter wouldn't have got a job with Cromwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Then again, perhaps you're right? This is allegedly Gen Chaytor and some of the BWI Regiment [photograph from a collection at the LoC (USA)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Now he looks like the man getting into the car. But who is the general officer leaning on his stick in that first photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Ah yes! Perhaps we were looking at the wrong officer at first. Sorry, can't help with the other chap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Sorry, can't help with the other chap Told a lie; yes I can help It's Brigadier General Cox of the 1st Australian Light Horse Brigade. see http://www.nzmr.org/chaytor.htm The file name was British West Indies So where do the British West Indies come into the picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 Thanks for the illumination Michael. If it were me I'd have called the file something more connected with the picture than British West Indies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 pa-pm-pt No problem Glad to have been of some help Best regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 31 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2009 Sorry, can't help with the other chap Told a lie; yes I can help It's Brigadier General Cox of the 1st Australian Light Horse Brigade. see http://www.nzmr.org/chaytor.htm The file name was British West Indies So where do the British West Indies come into the picture? Thanks for solving my original question I think the file name was a shortened version of a longer file name which I think was Commander of the British West Indies - presumably the missing word was Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 Well, we got there in the end didn't we Best of luck with the remainder of the salvage op Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 8 February , 2009 Share Posted 8 February , 2009 Another winner. Pity the people saying that the West Indian troops weren't allowed to bear arms don't know about this campaign! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 9 February , 2009 Share Posted 9 February , 2009 quote: Pity the people saying that the West Indian troops weren't allowed to bear arms don't know about this campaign! Have to agree with you there The OH [Military Ops, Egypt & Palestine, Part 2, Vol II, page 559] under the page heading 'Good Work Accomplished' notes that the casualties of Chaytor Force were 139 and that "The heaviest losses in any unit was 41 in the 2/B.W.I." I've just had a look at that part of 'The Times History' which covers this part of the campaign, and have failed to spot any mention of the British West Indies Regiment. The BWI were particularly mentioned by Allenby in his Despatch of 31st October 1918 However, Lt-Col J. H. Patterson (who commanded 'Patterson's Column' [in Chaytor's Force]) commenting on the similar brief ref to his Jewish troops says it "must by some fluke or other have dodged the Censor" (see 'With the Judeans in the Palestine Campaign') It is possible that the common prejudices of the times were also at work here. The author of 'The Desert Mounted Corps in Palestine & Syria 1917-1918' was Lt-Col the Hon R. M. Preston DSO, and he wrote of one action thus: "…the New Zealand Brigade with a West Indies battalion, seized the bridge at Jisr el Damieh, and crossed to the east bank. In the attack on the bridgehead the New Zealanders and the 'coloured gentlemen' both charged the Turks simultaneously and had a severe hand-to-hand struggle before achieving their object" And Colonel E. B. Maunsell writing in his "Prince of Wales's Own, The Scinde Horse" when referring to the measures taken to fool the enemy's air reconnaissance before the opening of the final push "… the Sambos, Ikey Mos and Cape Boys were kept marching backwards and forwards between Talaat El Dumm and Jericho so as to give the impression that troops were coming down to the valley. The return march was carried out at night." Maunsell's Sambos is a ref to the British West Indies Regiment and Ikey Mos to the Jewish battalions of the Royal Fusiliers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now