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Central Power Occupiers as Allied powers lands schoolers


John Gilinsky

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Read the following:

"School. History has been removed from the curriculum as a subject. Geography...was replaced by a physical study of Europe as a part of the world (without any countires),...

... [the Germans] didn't give us a new textbook, they just amended the old one by tearing out all the pages to do with the politics of ... [ maybe this is where Robin Williams got his idea for that scene in Dead Poets Society? ] They suggested to children that they [ that is the children themselves ] should tear out those pages themselves. A German officer spoke to the children. (He had studied in a classical school prewar and was a teacher of chemistry for senior pupils). .... Library. All books on politics were removed [ that is from the school library ]..."

What happened to the indigeneously based school aged children's curriculum and resources under Central Power and in particular German unilaterally controlled (especially Beligum and northern France) occupied lands? I know that pre-war there were a couple of infamous cases of curriculum controversy in Alsace-Lorraine with French being forbidden from being taught for example. The cases I refer to though involved some books that showed the French in too good a light I believe. Perhaps some of our Belgian and French GWF members with access to provincial, regional and local educational historical resources (perhaps they are teachers in such areas currently?) may help answer this large question. I also seem to remember that a couple of Belgian and French teachers were executed as violating occupation policies or rules and/or "spying."

Thanks,

John

Toronto

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John, have you noticed that quite a while has passed and no one has responded to your post? It is almost incomprehensible. The first paragraph is a lengthy quote, but not a clue as to where it is from, or even the nationality of the writer or speaker. Within the quotation half of the verbage seems to be yours. The second paragraph has a number of accusations with no source, or much specific info. Are you saying that the teaching of French was banned in Alsace-Lorraine (hardly likely, in my opinion), or that certain books were banned?

Bob Lembke

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What happened to occupied Belgium and France in their civilian schools? How did the German occupation authorities censor, restrict, prohibit, discipline, control and punish transgressors of occupation policies, laws and rules that directly dealt with such schools and their educators and students?

John

Toronto

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John, have you noticed that quite a while has passed and no one has responded to your post? It is almost incomprehensible. The first paragraph is a lengthy quote, but not a clue as to where it is from, or even the nationality of the writer or speaker. Within the quotation half of the verbage seems to be yours. The second paragraph has a number of accusations with no source, or much specific info. Are you saying that the teaching of French was banned in Alsace-Lorraine (hardly likely, in my opinion), or that certain books were banned?

Bob Lembke

I just don't like to be ordered to "Read the following".

My first preference is to be asked.

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Is that all? Think of the long lasting impact of the war on the civilian populations who were occupied by the enemy as well as the impact on learning and education generally.

John

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John - with respect. Perhaps we could have the topic re-named and the initial post clarified? I actually believe the subject of how the French and Belgian school/education systems were affected when under occupation may well be an interesting topic.

However, I have to agree with Bob Lembke that some editing of the original post would be of benefit to all.

Des

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Thanks Des for your admin thoughts. However, the very subsequent posts including my own have made the purpose of the thread eminently clear. If no one wants to play that is another story. Reasons for non-posting could be many and not necessarily due to my allegedly awkward wording of the original post that initiated the thread/topic. I have to admit that the primary sources are somewhat arcane and obscure: undoubtedly buried in war and immediate post-war memoirs of educators from France and Belgium and others who lived in the occupied areas and witnessed what happened near and in their schools.

Newspapers including letters to same would of course also produce perhaps even the greater primary source component: again where are the English speaking French and Belgian members of the GWF?

John

Toronto

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John,

I have to agree with Des, what is often clear to the writer can be opaque to the reader, at the present your questions/statements can be hard to follow. There is a long history of occupiers imposing there own values, language, laws and education curriculum on occupied lands, for example the French banning German in Alsace-Lorraine post WW1, and during WW1 would have been no different.

I also agree with Des that this could be a fascinating thread, for example:

What did happen to the curriculum and education "systems" or process within the occupied land of for example, France, Belgium and Russia?

How much did the occupiers change or attempt to change the curriculum in the invaded territories of France, Belgium and Russia?

What changes did they make, or plan to make, to the history currilculum in Belgium and France as it related to the national history (kings and government) of those nations?

What changes did they make, or plan to make, to the geography curriculum as it relates to national boundaries?

Looking forward to learning much from this thread.

Cheers,

Hendo

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"again where are the English speaking French and Belgian members of the GWF?"

John

Toronto

Regrettably the most qualified Belgian participant in the Forum, who worked in six languages, who had published two substantial books, whose entire life was devoted to the study of WW I, was driven off this Forum by an ultra-nationalistic Pal who, although he had none of the important languages for a study of Belgium in WW I (French, Flemish/Dutch, and German), of course knew what happened in Belgium in 1914 much better than the Belgian, and told him so in no uncertain terms.

Let me hasten to add that IMHO 98% of the Pals of the GWF are entirely gentlemanly and hold their nationalism and other tribal tendencies in admirable check.

The opening post suggests (really states) that the study of French was forbidden in Alsace-Lorraine between 1871 and 1914. I find this hard to believe. When my Father, a 18 year old, entered the Army in 1915, he had six languages, including excellent French learned in years of study in Germany. There was a large ethnic French community in Berlin, with French-language newspapers. The Kaiser and the Crown Prince spoke excellent, almost flawless French, according in part to a captured French officer who was invited to dinner with the Crown Prince. In fact German and military German had a lot of French in it at the time. (Officers' ranks had just been switched to German terms from the French, and Bismark had just ordered the Foreign Ministry to stop writing its internal official correspondence in French.) Perhaps some low-level blockhead took some stupid steps, but an actual policy is hard to believe. In the US during WW I people were criminally prosecuted for using German, and its teaching was made a crime in many places.

Bob Lembke

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Regrettably the most qualified Belgian participant in the Forum, who worked in six languages, who had published two substantial books, whose entire life was devoted to the study of WW I, was driven off this Forum by an ultra-nationalistic Pal who, although he had none of the important languages for a study of Belgium in WW I (French, Flemish/Dutch, and German), of course knew what happened in Belgium in 1914 much better than the Belgian, and told him so in no uncertain terms.Bob Lembke

Man, that is sad and tragic.

Let me hasten to add that IMHO 98% of the Pals of the GWF are entirely gentlemanly and hold their nationalism and other tribal tendencies in admirable check.

Bob Lembke

I quite agree. Thank goodness.

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Man, that is sad and tragic.

A big issue in the dispute that led (as far as I could tell, although I of course cannot be certain of all of the motives) was that the "non-Belgian" felt that he had a much better angle on what happened in Louvain in 1914, in particular with the burning of the library of the University of Louvain, than the Belgian did. The fact that, besides his many other qualifications as an authority on the Great War, in particular on the war in Belgium, many of which I did not list above, the Belgian was a graduate of the University of Louvain, did not seem to matter a whit. It seemed that the other Pal had read a lot of the English-language literature produced during the war, which IMHO is, 95%, one form or another, deliberate war-time propaganda, and he was all fired up.

The study of the war in Belgium is fraught with pit-falls, not the least of which is that almost none of the primary sources are in English, and that simply torrents of propaganda was churned out during the war by the Brits, the French, and the Belgian government-in-exile. I have studied this stuff a bit, and its production, and it is actually rather interesting.

I recently bought, on e-Bay, the manuscript diary of a German sergeant in my grand-father's army corps in Belgium; it is 80 long pages covering somewhat more than a month. I have it half-transliterated and translated (it is written in a mix of the Suetterlin and Kurrent writing systems, rather like my grand-father's handwriting) and after I use it in my writing (the book I am writing now) I will be sure that it is not lost; perhaps I will privately publish it, with facing pages of the hand-written original in faximile and my translation into English. It paints a complex picture of the relations between the Germans and the Belgians, good moments, tragic moments, frequent sniping by civilians, harsh retaliations, Belgians coming out of their homes to give fruit and water to the passing infantry, or, for some money, cooking good meals and coffee and providing good wine, confused fighting and marching about; Belgians terrified of the Germans, the Germans borrowing an accordion from their "Belgian coal merchant", playing and singing at night; the Belgian adults at first afraid, but first the children coming out to sing with the troops, and then the adults losing their fear and coming out and also singing along. (An inducement was that there was a professional-quality soloist among the German troops.)

I got in a bidding war with a Belgian and ended up paying a lot for the diary; I feel that I have a duty to add it to the literature. The diary is quite believable, it was written by the sergeant for himself, it seems, when the unit passed thru Berlin on their way to Russia in late 1914 the sergeant seems to have gotten it to his family in Berlin, and I guess it has been in the family ever since. The sergeant expressed being ashamed of some things the Germans did, like looting (he admitted looting a piece of bacon he found on an abandoned kitchen table).

I also probably will eventually publish my grand-father's letters from Belgium, and a post-war article that he wrote about his activity in Belgium during the war; he was in the Generalkommando von III. Reservekorps, which was reinforced to six divisions to take Antwerp from six Belgian double-sized divisions and the Naval Division. The letters are rather candid and in places eye-opening, and of course he was well-placed to know what was going on, being high in the command structure.

I will try to follow the thread and see if I can help, but I am not crawling with anxiety with what was taught in the schools. I really can't see how the Germans would have been able to micro-manage the schools.

Bob Lembke

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German in particular occupation policies regarding cultural assimilation or at least cultural containment of any conceivable threat to the German Empire and its troops emananting or sprouting forth in occupied classrooms must have been a fairly high priority actually especially as the war dragged on (say at least from latter 1915 onwards). Of course it is true that the Germans hardpressed (as every belligerent was) for actual manpower both combattant and logistical, would hardly have swarmed elementary schools rooting out all anti-German thoughts and expressions.

John

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There are of course cases of direct German intervention in the Belgian educational system. You only have to think of the "flemish" university of Gent created by governor general von Bissing (decree of 02/12/1915)(actual creation 21/03/1916)

to Bob Lembke

i'm intrigued by your reference to sniping by Belgian civilians

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I smell the ole "divide and conquer here" with the creation of the Flemish University. I could be completely wrong but would not the Germans try to politically divide Belgiums from one another by furthering linguistic and cultural divides between the French speaking and Flemish speaking Belgians by the creation of this University? Does anyone know anything more about WHY the Germans created this University, the war-time history of the University and the POST-WAR fate of it? Of course controversies encompassing it during and say in the period 1919 - 1940 would be relevant.

John

Toronto

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I suspect that the Flemish/Walloon divide is central to the whole question of "what happened in Belgium", and one that is rarely mentioned. As I hope everyone knows, the population of Belgium is largely divided between the French-speaking Walloons and the Flemish/Dutch speaking Flemish. (Flemish is either simply Dutch or a close dialect of Dutch, which itself is a Germanic language. I find it rather easy to read, if you do not expect every nuance.)

At the time of the Great War the Walloons seemed to run the country, and the Walloons seemed to feel that they were badly treated. What we consider Belgian material from the period really should be considered Walloon material. I pulled a very large Belgian book published just after the war entitled (in translation) The German Invasion (from memory), and I found not a word of military matters (I only skimmed it, there might have been something), it was only, about 50-50, glorification of the Belgian royal family and a great host of Belgian officials, and atrocity stories, some clearly perposterous. There was something like 60 plates of portraits of officials, and I think that only one had a Flemish name.

Now, of course, the tables have turned, and the Flemish are richer and generally more powerful, and it seems that it is quite possible that the country will actually divide. Didn't it take 15 months for the present Belgian government to form? This is despite Belgium having an elaborate federal system to provide local ethnic autonomy. In 1967 I worked in Jugoslavija with a Belgian woman professor, and she told me that the situation was awful, that in her town there had to be a French-speaking Walloon university, and a Flemish university. I am sure that in 1914 the Walloons were being absolutely screwed in the area of higher education, and if the Germans formed a Flemish university, it was in their own interest, but also met a great need among the Flemish half of the population.

In the war-time English-language writings on Belgium there is a lot of mentioning that the Flemish were true to the Allied clause, despite German efforts to subvert them, so much that perhaps the assertion was not 100% correct.

In the diary that I mentioned, the German sergeant mentioned that, as they marched into Belgium, people came out of their houses as they marched past and gave them water and good fruit, and that these people spoke "a language like ours", clearly Flemish. In other towns they were repeatedly fired upon by the inhabitants; in one case they charged a house from which they were fired upon and pulled out, among others, a 12 year old and a priest.

The topic of snipers was mentioned, I will not go into it here at any length in this post, but the German primary sources, including my grand-father's letters, were full of mentions of these incidents. My family oral history recounts how once he had to dive out of his staff car and crawl under it for cover from civilian sniper fire.

He never told me (we corresponded a bit a few years ago), but the Belgian that I previously mentioned must be Flemish, as his name seems to be, and at least one of his books, which I have, is written in Flemish/Dutch. Another suggestion that the Flemish probably have a somewhat different take on the question of "what happened in Belgium?"

Bob Lembke

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The flemish/walloon differences are actually more complex than Bob seems to think. For instance before the start of the war there were complaints by Walloon politicians that the Flemish were overrepresented in the governement.

Gent University (my alma mater) dates back to about 1819. In 1911 a law was passed to make this university more flemish. Several prominent members of the university (e.g. the well known historian Henri Pirenne) were arrested by the Germans (no grounds given) and deported to Germany.The entire corps of professors resigned at the proclamation of the Flemish university. So new collaborating teachers had to be installed.

I'm currently reading a series of flemish contemporary diaries (by a teacher in Aalst) on the German invasion. The writer gives a slightly different view on the provision of food and drink to German forces. " Altough people chalked "Gute leute" on their houses they were plundered anyway"

I'm further always amazed about the German capacity to differenciate between military and civilian sniper fire

Carl (ps I'm as Flemish as they come)

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The flemish/walloon differences are actually more complex than Bob seems to think. For instance before the start of the war there were complaints by Walloon politicians that the Flemish were overrepresented in the governement.

Gent University (my alma mater) dates back to about 1819. In 1911 a law was passed to make this university more flemish. Several prominent members of the university (e.g. the well known historian Henri Pirenne) were arrested by the Germans (no grounds given) and deported to Germany.The entire corps of professors resigned at the proclamation of the Flemish university. So new collaborating teachers had to be installed.

I'm currently reading a series of flemish contemporary diaries (by a teacher in Aalst) on the German invasion. The writer gives a slightly different view on the provision of food and drink to German forces. " Altough people chalked "Gute leute" on their houses they were plundered anyway"

I'm further always amazed about the German capacity to differenciate between military and civilian sniper fire

Carl (ps I'm as Flemish as they come)

Fantastic! Finally someone who knows what he is talking about! I have lots of questions, which I will try to keep under control. I have been wary of this topic, as I am sure that I could spend the rest of my life working away at it and not get very far, but I am writing about my grand-father's experiences, and I feel a duty to have some grasp of what actually was going on.

I certainly grasp that the Flemish/Walloon situation is exceedingly complex, and I can only say that I at least know that it in fact exists, but I certainly know few of the details.

The diary I am working on (I have had to put it aside for a while, unfortunately) is only one man's view of this, but certainly reflects the complexity of the situation. The diary-keeper seems to be honest, and criticizes and regrets things that the Germans did, but I am sure that he also filtered what he actually wrote down.

I would be fascinated to read the diaries that you mentioned. Were they published? I assume that they are in Flemish. I haven't tried to read too much Flemish, but I find it not too hard, I get about 50% of it in a quick pass without applying the dictionary, and if I tried more I am sure that it would work better. If published, could you provide a title?

Carl, thanks for your input.

Bob

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Thanks cdr and Bob. I am wondering if anyone has published academic articles on how the Flemish and French divide was impacted directly by the war and the war's immediate aftermath (early 1920's and period of reconstruciton). Were there allegations/counter-allegations of collaboration / resistance and unfair profiting from the German occupation thrown about and debated publicly say in the war's immediate aftermath? The Fleminization (sorry for the sp!) of a major university must have aroused some envy on those who deemed to now be excluded etc....

John

Toronto

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One of the incidents that I have read about which suggested to me that the Flemish and Walloons had a different take on the war-time events in Belgium supposedly happened about 1933. Some people and/or organizations, presumably Walloon, proposed and built a memorial to some supposed war-time martyrs to German brutality. The memorial was built, but before it was dedicated some Flemish supposedly dynamited the memorial. As I did not and do not plan to write about this topic, I am 97% sure that I did not enter the supposed incident in one of my many time-lines or sub-time-lines, which in total run to about 800 single-spaced word-processor pages. I am sure that I was not reading a German source when I saw the mention of this supposed incident; most likely a French-language Belgian source. But when I read that, probably 2-3 years ago, I said to myself: "Whoaa, these people seem to be of two minds about some events of the war!" I have also, over the eight years that I have been intensively studying WW I, noted that most of the Belgians I have noticed participating in WW I fora, or collecting photos, artifacts, research books, seem to be Flemish, and some of them seem to have a strong interest in the German side of WW I. (I used to correspond with a few when I was actively buying stuff on e-Bay.) I would not say that they were "pro-German". It is a sensitive topic, I suspect, and I never really quizzed someone on it, but I was sure that there was an issue there. I wonder if it has a part in the present slide of Belgium to possible division.

I don't recall seeing many Walloons active in WW I fora, but they may congregate in French-language fora. (To generalize horribly, and probably rely on facts as they were 30 or 40 years ago, native French-speakers seem to be less comfortable in other languages. I have noted that also in Alsace, like an ethnic Frenchwoman 40 years old and working in tourism mostly only speaking French, while her 25 year old ethnic German French citizen work partner spoke five languages. Again, I may be generalizing horribly.) I mostly participate in English-language fora, mostly GWF, but sometimes venture into German or Dutch/Flemish language fora, but mostly not French sites, with one major exception, and that is French French, not Walloon. (In the past year or 18 months I have read 268 French unit histories on-line; I keep precise track with a spreadsheet so I don't read the same ones twice or three times. Fortunately most of them are surprisingly brief. There seem to be about 500 on-line, and I hope to read them all.)

As may be apparent, I am fascinated with ethnic questions, which sometimes are a minefield. Just yesterday a kind GWF Pal did a bit of geneological research on my English family and I just found out that, going back another generation, that some were Scotch and German, not English. So I am a bit more German than I thought, and one-quarter Danish, and a mix of English and Scotch.

Bob Lembke

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As may be apparent, I am fascinated with ethnic questions, which sometimes are a minefield. Just yesterday a kind GWF Pal did a bit of geneological research on my English family and I just found out that, going back another generation, that some were Scotch and German, not English. So I am a bit more German than I thought, and one-quarter Danish, and a mix of English and Scotch.

Bob Lembke

Scotch is a drink. Perhaps you mean a mix of English and Scottish. Or, perhaps you don't.

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Scotch is a drink. Perhaps you mean a mix of English and Scottish. Or, perhaps you don't.

Sorry. I probably have (attempted) to write the word "Scottish" two or three times in my 69 years. Now that I am a (part) member of the tribe I will have to learn to spell it.

Bob

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Bob,

Scottish "tribes" och aye, laddie! For the life of me I have never understood how people claim part this and part that. But now that you have found that your heritage/forebears/antecedents are part Scottish and that you are "part" Scot, surely you mean you are part of the clan's!

Cheers,

Hendo

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Bob,

Scottish "tribes" och aye, laddie! For the life of me I have never understood how people claim part this and part that. But now that you have found that your heritage/forebears/antecedents are part Scottish and that you are "part" Scot, surely you mean you are part of the clan's!

Cheers,

Hendo

Geez, Bob, you're in trouble now.

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Bob and John

A good recent work on the political, cultural, linguistic etc. situation in Belgium are the books by Sophie De Schaepdrijver (prof. at Penn. State University) In Dutch it was called " De Groote Oorlog Het Koninkrijk Belgiƫ in de Eerste Wereldoorlog".

Carl

(nothing wrong with Scottish My wife is from the isle of Rhum)

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