jackwright Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Hello, I am a new poster and am seeking help with information regarding my grandfather, Jack Wright, C9450 who served with the 20th Battalion KRRC (Pioneers). My main problem is that I've not been able to find Jack's war record on Ancestry and don't know when he would have joined up - I appreciate many records were lost in a fire but hope his may still turn up when they start downloading records for surnames beginning with 'W'. I have a copy of his medal rolls and also a certificate dated april 1919 when he left the army. He was born in 1883 so would have been an older member of the battalion. I have already read a copy of Turberville's book about the battalion which explains what it did and where it was throughout the war. So I think I understand what he would have done as a pioneer. I suspect he may have worked with the horses as this was his trade. My main concern is to able to date when he joined up? I have a picture of him with about 40 other men in full kit with rifles posing in front of a railway embankment. There is a board in the photo on which is marked, 20th KRRC, 47 Platoon. Can anybody tell me if there is any way I can date the formation of the 47th platoon which could tell me when he actually joined the army? He was married in July 1917 so I originally assumed he joined after this. However, I guess he could have got married while on home leave from the front? I'm not sure if giving the men such leave would have been usual and if so how long it would have lasted for? I'd be very grateful for any advice on these questions and any suggestions about how I can better follow-up. My thanks. jack wright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 23 January , 2009 Share Posted 23 January , 2009 Jack Welcome to the Forum ! According to the Long Long Trail,at top left of this page, 20 KRRC was formed in London in August 1915.It moved to Wellingborough in Feb 1916,and at the end of March 1916 landed in France. In May 1916 it was attached to 3 Division as Pioneers. That Division was involved around Ypres and St Eloi around this time, then on the Somme later that year,and at Passchendaele in 1917. As he would have been 32 in 1915 there is every reason to expect that he joined up from the formation. The photo probably indicates the platoon as a fresh entity from the same time,rather than reinforcements at a later joining date,as they wouldn't have know then what platoon required them as replacements. If he landed in France in March 1916 he could well have had some leave in July 1917,and enough to get married in,probably several days. You could try to see if there is an enlistment date on the original Medal Roll (not the Medal Index Card) which is at Kew in the series WO329,and which you can identify using the letters and numbers shown against the medal issues on the card you have. Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwright Posted 26 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Jack Welcome to the Forum ! According to the Long Long Trail,at top left of this page, 20 KRRC was formed in London in August 1915.It moved to Wellingborough in Feb 1916,and at the end of March 1916 landed in France. In May 1916 it was attached to 3 Division as Pioneers. That Division was involved around Ypres and St Eloi around this time, then on the Somme later that year,and at Passchendaele in 1917. As he would have been 32 in 1915 there is every reason to expect that he joined up from the formation. The photo probably indicates the platoon as a fresh entity from the same time,rather than reinforcements at a later joining date,as they wouldn't have know then what platoon required them as replacements. If he landed in France in March 1916 he could well have had some leave in July 1917,and enough to get married in,probably several days. You could try to see if there is an enlistment date on the original Medal Roll (not the Medal Index Card) which is at Kew in the series WO329,and which you can identify using the letters and numbers shown against the medal issues on the card you have. Sotonmate Thank you very much for the helpful advice. I will follow up in the records at Kew as you suggest. jack wright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 By coincidence I researched a chap from the same battalion only last week. These might help: C/9247 Harry Adams, aged 38 and from Lewisham, enlisted into the 20th Battalion on 2 November 1915. C/9772 Albert Allard, aged 23 and from Kent, also enlisted directly into the battalion, on 7 December 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwright Posted 30 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Chris, my thanks jack wright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 Jack, Getting the enlistment date without his Service Record is a bit tricky! Sorry to say but Enlistment Dates are not recorded on either the KRRC 1914/1915 Star nor British War/Victory medal rolls. His Embarkation Date (i.e. when he first landed in France) would be shown on the 1914/1915 Star Medal Roll (and usually on the MIC as well). Incidentally that roll would also show the date he was discharged to Class Z Reserve. However I see on the MIC that there is no 1914/1915 Star Medal Roll reference. This implies that he did not qualify for the 1915 Star and that he did not land in France until after the end of 1915. This is entirely consistent since 20th (Service) Battalion (British Empire League Pioneers) did not arrive in France until 30th March 1916. The British War/Victory medal roll would show the KRRC battalion(s) in which he served and his rank on becoming "non-effective" (discharge in Jack's case), but it only shows dates if a man was commissioned or transferred out of the KRRC completely. No help with enlistment there, but I'd get hold of it anyway for this other info it may contain. 20/KRRC was formed on 20th August 1915 and (in theory at least) allocated the Service Number range C/8001 through C/10000 in the KRRC/RB numbering schema1. Jack's Service Number of C/9450 is late within that range, which could imply he was a late recruit into the battalion, but I would not put much weight on that. The only other method is to estimate his Enlistment Date from the Silver War Badge medal roll. The SWB roll lists the Service Number and Enlistment Date for each man. By doing a rather laborious comparision of Jack's service number against neighbouring Service Numbers on the SWB roll it is possible to at least "bracket" his likely Enlistment Date within a time window. This technique makes use of the fact that Service Numbers were allocated in enlistment sequence. That will require a trip to Kew though ... unless you are very lucky and a certain Pal here on the Forum is not too busy to help you out ... but be aware this SWB technique is very fiddly! Cheers, Mark 1Credit due to Mr Pay for the KRRC/RB numbering schema info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 February , 2009 Share Posted 1 February , 2009 .. I have a picture of him with about 40 other men in full kit with rifles posing in front of a railway embankment. There is a board in the photo on which is marked, 20th KRRC, 47 Platoon. My thanks. jack wright Jack, Any chance of you posting the photo? It will be of very great interest to us KRRC specialists! Cheers, Mark PS You may have to wait until you've made a few Posts though - new members don't get the Attachments facility straightaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwright Posted 3 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2009 Jack, Getting the enlistment date without his Service Record is a bit tricky! Sorry to say but Enlistment Dates are not recorded on either the KRRC 1914/1915 Star nor British War/Victory medal rolls. His Embarkation Date (i.e. when he first landed in France) would be shown on the 1914/1915 Star Medal Roll (and usually on the MIC as well). Incidentally that roll would also show the date he was discharged to Class Z Reserve. However I see on the MIC that there is no 1914/1915 Star Medal Roll reference. This implies that he did not qualify for the 1915 Star and that he did not land in France until after the end of 1915. This is entirely consistent since 20th (Service) Battalion (British Empire League Pioneers) did not arrive in France until 30th March 1916. The British War/Victory medal roll would show the KRRC battalion(s) in which he served and his rank on becoming "non-effective" (discharge in Jack's case), but it only shows dates if a man was commissioned or transferred out of the KRRC completely. No help with enlistment there, but I'd get hold of it anyway for this other info it may contain. 20/KRRC was formed on 20th August 1915 and (in theory at least) allocated the Service Number range C/8001 through C/10000 in the KRRC/RB numbering schema1. Jack's Service Number of C/9450 is late within that range, which could imply he was a late recruit into the battalion, but I would not put much weight on that. The only other method is to estimate his Enlistment Date from the Silver War Badge medal roll. The SWB roll lists the Service Number and Enlistment Date for each man. By doing a rather laborious comparision of Jack's service number against neighbouring Service Numbers on the SWB roll it is possible to at least "bracket" his likely Enlistment Date within a time window. This technique makes use of the fact that Service Numbers were allocated in enlistment sequence. That will require a trip to Kew though ... unless you are very lucky and a certain Pal here on the Forum is not too busy to help you out ... but be aware this SWB technique is very fiddly! Cheers, Mark 1Credit due to Mr Pay for the KRRC/RB numbering schema info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwright Posted 4 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2009 Jack, Any chance of you posting the photo? It will be of very great interest to us KRRC specialists! Cheers, Mark PS You may have to wait until you've made a few Posts though - new members don't get the Attachments facility straightaway. Mark, thanks you for the helpful advice. I've tried to add a copy of the photo on this reply - fingers crossed! jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 8 February , 2009 Share Posted 8 February , 2009 Jack, Thanks for the photo! Hope you liked my one with the pioneer collar dogs! Further to our discussions off the Forum about the location where it was taken, I notice in Turberville's battalion history that the Great Western Railway made some of their railway land in London available to the battalion for training in trench construction etc. Together with the shape of the rooves as we already discussed, this increases the likelihood of our thoughts that it is indeed somewhere in London just before they were ready to embark. Reading Turberville again, I see what you meant about the shortage of rifles too! Still looking into the blanket roll questions. CHeers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 8 February , 2009 Share Posted 8 February , 2009 Jack, You might be interested in this Forum topic showing a picture of 20/KRRC on a recruiting march in Central London: KRRC recruitment march (pic), KRRC recruitment march in London They're carrying blanket rolls, but no rifles. Maybe one of them is your GF Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwright Posted 12 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2009 Jack, You might be interested in this Forum topic showing a picture of 20/KRRC on a recruiting march in Central London: KRRC recruitment march (pic), KRRC recruitment march in London They're carrying blanket rolls, but no rifles. Maybe one of them is your GF Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwright Posted 12 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2009 Mark, thank you. I've just caught up with your posts. The recruiting March is a great addition to the few photos I have. I couldn't spot a match but its nice to think that even if he wasn't in the photo he was still involved with the regiment around this time. jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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