PhilB Posted 24 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2009 You are also overestimating the size of the HQ, the small bombloads and the ability of German bombers to get through to their objective. I`ve seen reports of a 1650 lb bomb in WW1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 24 January , 2009 Share Posted 24 January , 2009 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jan 24 2009, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I`ve seen reports of a 1650 lb bomb in WW1? Carried operationally by some HP O/400s ( with a 2 or 3 man crew) and intended as the bombload for the HP V1500 There was also a 3,300inb SN Major. An American post war O/400 actually carried a 4,300 lb bomb in 1921 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Timing and operational use is everything; I note that the examples quoted are for British aircraft or post war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Even with those bombs aboard, bombing a town or even a large section of a town, in the hope of causing casualties to GHQ staff seems rather a waste. The same bomb dropped on an ammunition dump, railway marshalling yard or main crossroads in the immediate rear of the front line would have had a certain and verifiable effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 26 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2009 I think there may have been official objections too. I can`t imagine that, had the RFC/RAF known exactly where the Kaiser (or a Crown Prince) was spending the night near the front, they would have authorized a bombing mission to kill him. So, I think the Germans would have had similar restraints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 The assassination of Franz Ferdinand had provoked outrage etc. but no one claimed that leaders even royalty were sacrosanct. The British bombing raids (by the RNAS) had started with strategic targets such as Zep sheds. The RFC with ground strafing had moved to attacking personnel, but not specific individuals. There is a great leap from both of those ideas to going after the high command. In addition, anyone with the idea would need the aircraft, weaponry and then convince a squadron commander of its viability. Would the death of any general and his staff; the Kaiser or Crown Princes by the score have altered the course of the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jan 26 2009, 03:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think there may have been official objections too. I can`t imagine that, had the RFC/RAF known exactly where the Kaiser (or a Crown Prince) was spending the night near the front, they would have authorized a bombing mission to kill him. So, I think the Germans would have had similar restraints. The Kaiser had proscribed bombing Buckingham Palace (apparently on the grounds that it wasn't done to bomb one's cousins) so I suspect the same would have applied to GRV or the PoW when visiting the front. However one is not sure that GRV would have had the same objections (especially seeing his attitude to "Uncle Nicky" after the revolution). I would have thought a Crown Prince in command of an army was fair game but the effort (and uncertainty) of getting him set against any advantage would make him an unprofitable target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Mate, I am aware of some discussion at the time of the British idea of sighting hospital units near railways. These became targets (the railways) for German attack which in many occasions also hit these hospital units. Rail ways were fair game but were the British guilty of some crime for sighting these hospital close to possible Targets? So if its fair game to target rail ways why not HQ 's? S.B I would not invest too much philosophical headaches in this genre: Brit WW1 hospitals indeed were concentrated next/within the compounds of huge depots in the rear area. These depots naturally were served by a vast network of strategic important RR lines. For hospitals it is/was vital to have excellent RR connectivity in those times. I could very well imagine the same applied for the Germans. So no big deal to locate hospitals near RR yards or even within large depot areas. Certainly no breach of Geneva or Hague convention in those times. Today, with precision bombing possible, its a different discussion if a hospital is co located next to a legitime high profile military tgt (like a depot). Most likely today it is considered a war crime according to Geneva convention. W/r to HQs: also no big deal - if in those times the artillery or Air Forces thought to be able to eliminate HQs, they certainly did so. But as was said by others here, the accuracy of bombing did not allow to waste tons of bombs/bomber fleets for a very very remote possibility to place a lucky hit. HQs are pretty small targets which could not easily be found by air nor succesfully hit with reasonable efforts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Would the death of any general and his staff; the Kaiser or Crown Princes by the score have altered the course of the war? There's possibly an argument that the death of someone very senior like Ludendorff or Falkenheim could have altered the course of the War by taking German strategies in new directions but I doubt if the cause and effect would be sufficiently clear to make it, as Centurian's said, worth a deliberate effort. After all, the loss of Kitchener didn't make a lot of difference to the way the British fought the War. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 I have scanned my aerials for this subject and found an aerial from the Brit depot Bouvencourt which I have cropped. The hospital complex is sitting right within the depot. The red circles mark Red Cross signs and the red rectangle shows the hospital next to RR and depot. Again - no big deal, I believe all sides did the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Here is another example: this is Brit materiel depot Breuly with hospital co located (next to RR line). 2 small red circles show Red Cross signs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Of course if the "Lions led by donkeys" theory had any reality the last thing the the Germans would want to do would be to pot a general! Any such 'bomb proof' generals anyone would like to nominate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 HQs are pretty small targets which could not easily be found by air nor succesfully hit with reasonable efforts From the air HQs would be small targets, as your aerials of hospitals show. On the ground they could be large buildings. That would mean that the bomb (and we are talking small individual bomb loads for these large bombs) would have to hit the right spot for either a direct hit or death by blast. Also they were often buildings with several floors and internal strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 .....correct, its like hitting the lucky 7 jackpot (in those times)....and target planners like myself (for 3 decades now) seldom gamble out of the blue but weigh their options. (I don't want to say cost-benefit analyses paired with effects- based approach, but actually it is reduced to exactly that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 After all, the loss of Kitchener didn't make a lot of difference to the way the British fought the War. Whilst the death of Sir James Grierson might have been beneficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 There was at least one British bombing raid on an enemy headquarters: on 8 April 1917 four DH 4s from No 55 Sqn RFC set out to bomb a chateau at Hardenpont, near Mons, that housed the headquarters of Crown Prince Rupprecht's Army Group. Three of the raiders were lost - A2140 with Lt R A Logan and Lt F R Henry both PoW, A2141 with Lt B Evans and 2Lt B W White both killed in action, and A2160 with Lt A J Hassar and 2Lt J A Myburgh both Died of Wounds. It seems unlikely that this was the only raid of its type. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 There was at least one British bombing raid on an enemy headquarters: on 8 April 1917 four DH 4s from No 55 Sqn RFC set out to bomb a chateau at Hardenpont, near Mons, that housed the headquarters of Crown Prince Rupprecht's Army Group. Three of the raiders were lost - A2140 with Lt R A Logan and Lt F R Henry both PoW, A2141 with Lt B Evans and 2Lt B W White both killed in action, and A2160 with Lt A J Hassar and 2Lt J A Myburgh both Died of Wounds. It seems unlikely that this was the only raid of its type. Gareth Was anything achieved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Was anything achieved? From a German point of view, yes. Three DH 4s were shot down. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Whilst the death of Sir James Grierson might have been beneficial. I suppose in every herd of donkeys there might be a thoroughbred..... Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 From a German point of view, yes. Three DH 4s were shot down. Gareth Obviously - but was anything achieved by the bombers - did they hit anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Isn't all this a bit hypothetical? Did the Germans actually have bomber aircraft that could reach the Chateaux where the generals lived? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 On 19th Sept 1917 RFC bombers attacked various Turkish Hq. This was part of a strategy of sowing alarm and confusion in the rear areas to support the main attack rather than an attempt to kill commanders in specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Isn't all this a bit hypothetical? Did the Germans actually have bomber aircraft that could reach the Chateaux where the generals lived? Well if they could bomb London I guess they could reach all but the most Duke of Plazatoro like general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 On 5th January 1918 Brigadier General Lizé Commander of the Artillery of the 10ème Armée in Italy. was mortally wounded when his HQ was bombed by enemy aircraft (KuK or German not specified). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Well if they could bomb London I guess they could reach all but the most Duke of Plazatoro like general Bombing London is a bit different from penetrating over the Western Front, where there were far more squadrons to intercept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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