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AIF rectangular colour patch sizes


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Can someone please tell me the dimensions of the rectangular colour patches of the AIF, eg 1st Div, 4th Bde and 5th Div? I have one source as 2.5 inches by 1.5 inches. The same source has them at 63mm by 32mm (2.5 inches by 1.25 inches).

Does anyone have the official measurement and the reference?

Thanks,

Len

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Can someone please tell me the dimensions of the rectangular colour patches of the AIF, eg 1st Div, 4th Bde and 5th Div? I have one source as 2.5 inches by 1.5 inches. The same source has them at 63mm by 32mm (2.5 inches by 1.25 inches).

Does anyone have the official measurement and the reference?

Thanks,

Len

You could ask the AWM - they have a collection of all the colour patches.

Can also ask in this thread => http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=108308. There is a meet up being arranged at the AWM. Unfortunately I may not be able to go.

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Thanks guys,

Have sent off the request. I'm actually going to the Canberra meet-up so may see you down there if you do go.

Len

www.1staif.info

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Len,

If you're only referring to the rectangular patch of the 1st Div, 5th Div & 4th Bde then the following will apply

Divisional Orders, No.81, para 562 of the 8 March 1915:-

'In order the better to distinguish the several units of the Division, coloured badges of cloth, 1 1/4 inches wide by 2 3/4 inches long, will be worn on the sleeve one inch below the shoulder seam.'

this order only applied only to the 1st Division and not the 4th Bde. By February 1917 (and onward) amendments were being made to particular 1st Div units in which the dimensions of 1 1/2" x 2 1/2" are being quoted. I'd be guessing that the 1st Div had by this time changed to this 'standard' size (1 1/2" x 2 1/2").

_______________________________

New Zealand and Australian Division.

Fourth (Australian) Infantry Brigade.

Brigade Order No.134 of the 31 March 1915:-

'The patches will be rectangular in shape and of dimensions 2 1/2" x 1 1/2" over-all'

these were to be worn on the left side of the helmet puggaree, or on the left side of cap band or hat band. Placement of the patches was soon changed from the head dress to the upper sleeve (4th Aust Inf Bde Orders, No.145 of 9 Apr 15).

_______________________________

The 5th Division patches are as:-

Australian and New Zealand Forces

Circular Memorandum No.17 of 25 Feb 16

'In continuation of Circular Memorandum No.3 of 14 Feb 1916 distinguishing patches for units of the 4th and 5th Australian Divisions will be as described below'

diagrams were provided with the dimensions of (vertical rectangle) 1 1/2 inches width and 2 1/2 inches height.

I hope this helps

Dan

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Hello all,

I know they're not rectangular but I thought it would be useful!

Illustrated a couple of patches I have in my collection. The oval measures 70mm across ( 2 3/4") and 42mm (1 3/4") deep. The MG patch is 50mm (2" wide) and 30mm (1 1/4" deep)

I hope this helps

Regards

Tocemma

post-7141-1232636541.jpg

post-7141-1232636559.jpg

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Thanks all,

It seems to be the 2 1/2 x 1 1/2 has it. I just want to make a few replicas for my medal collection and want to get it right. Most of the original patches seem to be all over the place - no doubt some digger on duty being given the task of cutting them out under guidance of a CQMS.

The 3rd div patches (oval) no doubt had to fit into the rectangular dimensions but most of the images on the AWM collection point towards 2 1/2 x 1 1/4 ratio.

That's an unusual patch you have Tocemma - looks like 44th Bn but the blue is very dark. Possibly its from the never fully formed 6th Div whch had vertical ovals.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Len

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Len,

Only a few weeks ago I scanned an original 36th Battalion AIF patch belonging to 3017 Pte Jimmy Button. Unfortunately I didn't think to take note of it's dimensions. Scotty.

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Len,

Basic shapes & sizes for the remaining divisions:-

2nd Div - diamond = 2" sides

3rd Div - ellipse (oval) = 3" width x 1 1/2" height

4th Div - circle = 2" diameter

6th Div - same as 3rd but worn vertically (raised Feb 17 - disbanded Sep 17)

The Light Horse went with 2 1/2" x 1 1/2"

As I'm sure you're aware these are the 'basic' sizes quoted from official orders etc., and as you're also well aware discrepancies exist to the point that the 'official dimensions' are probably in the minority.

Patches were also amended throughout the war, but these mainly apply to lesser known units.

Cheers,

Dan

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Hello all,

Thanks for the replies.

Len and Scotty, A pleasure, the blue of the patch looks a bit darker on the scan. It don't think its connected with 3rd Div ASC, although the colour is very much like the illustration you posted in reality.

The MG badge is connected to 2100 E C Hudson, 25 MGC, AIF. I have a number of items of his, which I found in Wales in the 1970s. This includes the stripe shown in the picture below. Attached to the back of this is a slip of paper saying 'worn in battle Bellicourt'

Judging by the '44' Len is spot on! Any ideas on the yellow MG patch? The identity bracelet lower left belonged to 635 W E Horsfall, 13th MG, AIF. Sadly I have never researched either man, so I have no clues as to their service. The book and ID discs belonged to E C Hudson. I have a number of handbooks belonging to him.

Regards

Tocemma

post-7141-1232703417.jpg

post-7141-1232703782.jpg

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Tocemma,

Have a look at the service records of your two men on the National Australian Archives site, open the 'view digital copy'

2100 HUDSON Edward Charlton

and

635 HORSFALL William Edward

You're quite correct in assuming the crossed guns is a MG patch

Authorised by AIF Order 222 of the 23 Aug 16:-

222 - Distinctive Colour Patches - Machine Gun Companies.

The personnel of each Australian Machine Gun Company will wear the patch of the Australian Infantry Brigade to which attached, with the addition of a cloth device ("crossed guns" which will be the patch of the Machine Gun Corps) as indicated hereunder, of yellow, and worn immediately below the Brigade patch.'

All previous orders on the subject are cancelled.

This order also applied to the 5 additional MG Companies (21st to 25th) added as 'Divisional MG Companies' (1 to each of the 5 divisions) in Apr 17 (AIF Order 594 of 17 Apr 17) - Black patch with white centre, in the Divisional shape).

These orders (222 & 594) were superseded by AIF Order 1207 of 26 Apr 18 when the 20 companies were re-organised into 5 MG Battalions (1st to 5th), the Crossed Guns remained but now beneath the 'Divisional' MG patch (Black patch with yellow centre, in the Divisional shape).

The dimensions of the patch should be 2" wide x 1 1/4" high

So, without looking through the file on your men:-

Hudson's patch would have been a 'Black vertical rectangle with a white square in the centre, with the yellow guns beneath - 25th MG Coy

Horsfall's patch a 'Light Blue circle with the crossed guns beneath - 13th MG Coy

I'd be guessing that they would have gone across to their respective MG Bn upon its formation.

I think I've covered just about all you could wish to know on the MG patch ;)

Cheers

Dan

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Dan,

Many thanks for taking the time to respond. I've had a look at both records. I wasn't aware that they were available online. Edward Charlton was 44th Battalion and then 5th Machine Gun Battalion. William Horsfall was 13th M G Company and was wounded by GSW right leg early in 1918.

Both survived the War.

Regards

Tocemma

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Well I got my reply back from the Australian War Memorial and their position is as follows:

"Thank you for your enquiry regarding the dimensions of rectangular colour patches worn by the AIF during the First World War. A Divisional Order entitled "Divisional Order No. 81 (A) Administration" was issued on 8 March 1915 to address the problem of individual unit identification and describes the chosen dimensions of the patches. It states:

562. In order the better to distinguish the several units of the Division, coloured patches of cloth 1 inches wide by 2 inches long will be worn on the sleeves one inch below the shoulder seam. Except in cases of Headquarters of Brigades and the Divisional Artillery, the Engineers and Army Medical Corps, badges will consist of two colours, the lower indicating the formation, the upper the unit etc. Light Horse [4th Light Horse] and Artillery badges will be divided diagonally, the others horizontally.

However, despite this official proclamation, the colour patch collection held by the AWM contains patches that range in size from 2 x 1 inches to 2.5 x 1.5 inches approximately. This has never been thought to be particularly unusual, as there were inconsistencies in the manufacturing of these patches. Therefore the Memorial's position is that anywhere between 2 x 1 and 2.5 x 1.5 inches is a realistic measurement of a rectangular patch worn by the AIF during the First World War taking into account the terms of variance.

Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance

Assistant Curator

Military Heraldry and Technology

Australian War Memorial

(02) 6243 4245"

So there we go.

Regards,

Len

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Len,

I think the Curator needs another Assistant Curator with basic reading skills :blink:

Div Order No.81

he never was much good at fractions either. :P

Cheers,

Dan

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  • 9 years later...
On 23/01/2009 at 09:46, tocemma said:

Hello all,

Thanks for the replies.

Len and Scotty, A pleasure, the blue of the patch looks a bit darker on the scan. It don't think its connected with 3rd Div ASC, although the colour is very much like the illustration you posted in reality.

The MG badge is connected to 2100 E C Hudson, 25 MGC, AIF. I have a number of items of his, which I found in Wales in the 1970s. This includes the stripe shown in the picture below. Attached to the back of this is a slip of paper saying 'worn in battle Bellicourt'

Judging by the '44' Len is spot on! Any ideas on the yellow MG patch? The identity bracelet lower left belonged to 635 W E Horsfall, 13th MG, AIF. Sadly I have never researched either man, so I have no clues as to their service. The book and ID discs belonged to E C Hudson. I have a number of handbooks belonging to him.

Regards

Tocemma

post-7141-1232703417.jpg

post-7141-1232703782.jpg

Hello tocemma , thank you for posting these items of 2100 E C Hudson , after the war he trained to be a doctor and became the chief medical officer at Northampton general hospital . During ww2 he became the medical officer in charge of Yardley school first aid post  in Birmingham as well as a GP in the daytime. I’m just researching him for a book I’m writing . He was a meticulous man who kept all his letters which I have about 100 of , all relating to the first aid post  . He died on Christmas Day 1976 

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