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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Signalling Telescope Stands (Tripods),


srf

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Some expert support for the view that some of the short leg Mk V tripods were used in the Great War.

I have received the following observations on my short leg Mk V telescope stand from the well-known military history weapons expert Martin Pegler who has allowed me to post this for the benefit of the forum. Mr Pegler is a recognised authority regarding the weapons of the Great War and also the history of military sniping.

"The tripod you have is the Mk V signallers/scout tripod. They were issued for front line use, the big tripod being too unwieldy and difficult to conceal. The small tripod could be used from a sniper's hide or signallers/artillery spotter's position, though in practice they seem to have been little used as it was just as easy to rest the scope on a sandbag and cover it with camouflage. I have never come across a photo of one in use, all the pictures I have show telescopes being laid flat on a sandbag or parapet. The Canadians seemed to like the little tripods and I've had a couple that were British made but Canadian marked, though I've never come across one dated later then 1916, which could just be coincidence. The telescopes for scouting/sniping were supposed to be 20x but snipers begged, borrowed and often stole 'scopes from anywhere they could [artillery units were a popular target, if you'll excuse the pun] and there was a huge choice from makers such as Ross, Negretti, Broadhurst, Beck, Dollond etc. [though you probably know this already....] so all sorts of different power scopes were used. Hope that is of help."

Stephen

I see that my tripod is the same as mentioned by Mr Pegler in Stephen's post above being Canadian marked and dated 1916 and it supports Mr. Pegler's observations in seeing short tripods. I believe the posting of my tripod should finally put to rest the question of whether short tripods were ever originally manufactured short,

Quote: "The Canadians seemed to like the little tripods and I've had a couple that were British made but Canadian marked, though I've never come across one dated later then 1916,"

Ray

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I guess I come down in the "Short tripods were made sometime prior to WWII" camp for the following reasons. Mine and others I've seen look like they were made that way. Their appearance is too uniform and too much like the condition and appearance of the long tripods I've seen. All of the short ones I've seen have been of the same length. If they were post-war modifications for civilian shooters I would expect to see variations in length and in the replacement off the feet. Some would be taller or shorter and some would have had the feet left off where the owner had simply sawn off the legs of a long tripod.

A good point made that if the long pods were cut down they would most likely be in various lengths where as original manufactured ones would all be the same lenght.

In regard to that statement, the length of the legs on my original tripod, measured from where they enter the tubes of the base, to the very tip of the metal feet, is one foot, (12"). The overall length of the tripod from the top edge of the clamp to the tip of the feet is 17-1/2".

These dimensions may help folks determine whether their short tripod had been cut down or not. With the understanding that the cut down ones probably wouldn't be of the same originally manufactured length, Ray

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  • 2 months later...

Hi Folks,

Having recently purchased a signals telescope and visiting the forum for further info I determined to find the correct stand. I had considered making and attachment for a helio tripod but it would only be a "mongrel" after a lot of effort.

Trawling through E-Bay one evening I couldn't believe my luck when the correct stand appeared and the seller gave me a very reasonable B.I.N. price.

The stand duly arrived and turned out to be even better than expected, although a bit grubby it retained most of the original finish. It retains the wood clamp block on it's cord but the carrying strap and covers are missing. The clamps are marked SIG TEL STAND MKV NO90 and "CONSOL" 1915 respectively. There is no evidence of an ordanance broad arrow.

Having spent some time reading the discussions on "long" V "short" the first task to throw a bit more light on the subject. The points on the legs were on the same axis as the legs which lead me to believe it had been shortened. All the screws appeared to have been untouched for many years and were obviously very old. Removal of the metal cap revealed that the wood points within the sockets had been reformed using hand methods rather than machine. The wood is some sort of hardwood having a very visible grain, certainly not modern broom handle dowel rod. I have concluded that my tripod has definately been cut down, but a long time in the past.

My opinion for what it's worth is that short tripods were never officially issued but were locally modified either during the war for convenience of use in trenches or transportation, or after the war for target ,as the modern prismatic spotting scopes were not generally available whereas there would have been surplus or liberated items generally available.

Lastly, if anyone has an unmodified stand, what is the distance between the point of the steel cap and the lower end of the brass socket. I would like to make some legs of the correct length.

Mick

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Hi Just a few points about the midget mutants

Ray your tripod has been converted the original markings clearly ground off and replaced with the TRIPOD, TELESCOPE, NO. 21 MK5,(CIAI)

It would have read SIG TEL STAND Mk V

NO. 21, MK 5 is a post 1914-1918 mark

The webbing on your strap is as used on the WW2 type. like on the New Zealand made tripods of 1944.

The Green paint is post WW1

The small tripods, seem to always have the wooden plug on a string and attachment to a leg, to protect the jaws not attached or sign of ever being attached.

Short leg post WW1 midget mods

Regards Jonathan

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Ray/Johnathan,

A few comments on your posts on midget tripods. The length of my midget stand overall is 16.5" obviously non standard? As for the wooden plug on a string the cord and plug on mine appear to very old and securely attached to the inside of the leg by a small brass clamp that is finished the same way as the rest of the metal work and machine made. On studying the photograph with "sergeant's" post of18-1-2009 you can just see a similar fitting inside the leg with the strap loop just under the leg socket.

It would be logical to fit a device to the jaws to prevent them becoming distorted during field use as only slight distortion would cause serious damage to the thin brass of the telescope draws.

Regards, Mick

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Hi Mick

Yes it is a standard on all of the Unmodified Stands!, I was meaning on all the midget examples I have seen the wooden block is missing.

I have a 1913 and 1916 dated unmodified examples I will measure the legs for you.

Jonathan

a drawing of mine of a Sigs telescope in use at a visual station 1918

trnchsigs-1.jpg

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Hi Johnathan, Have you had chance to measure up yet? I have been scaling photos etc. and come up with 24" of visible wood. Am I anywhere near?

Regards, Mick

Hi Mick

Yes it is a standard on all of the Unmodified Stands!, I was meaning on all the midget examples I have seen the wooden block is missing.

I have a 1913 and 1916 dated unmodified examples I will measure the legs for you.

Jonathan

a drawing of mine of a Sigs telescope in use at a visual station 1918

trnchsigs-1.jpg

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Hi on my 1917 100 feet Mil tape measure it is 2 feet 5.5 inches around 30inches

Sorry as it is the only thing I have at hand.

Regards Jonathan

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Jonathan.

You mention,

"Ray your tripod has been converted the original markings clearly ground off and replaced with the TRIPOD, TELESCOPE, NO. 21 MK5,(CIAI) It would have read SIG TEL STAND Mk V

"

As I understand then, you mean it had been converted from a longer leg one to the current size and restamped TELESCOPE, NO. 21 MK5,(CIAI)?

After your post, I looked and saw were it appears that metal had been removed, the contour is changed, and the NO. 21, MK 5, CIAI stamp was applied where the SIG TEL STAND Mk V as you mentioned would have been.

About what year would that NO. 21, MK 5, CIAI stamp have been applied and would it be reasonable to assume that the tripod was probably altered by/for the Canadian military having that NO. 21, MK 5, CIAI Canadian stamp applied? I took one of the metal pointed end caps off and the wood had been professionaly machined turned, not hand cut, to match the cap contour. Possibly the legs were replaced or the old ones machined down to match the dia of the caps/tips as there is no over hang/proud of the wood by the tips. What about the carrying strap? It appears to have been specificly made and designed for a short tripod? Maybe it was made when the tripod was altered? But what about the leather covers having Brit broad arrow stamps? The whole thing is a bit confusing to me.

A little disappointed it isn't an original made short one but either way, the tripod still goes with my WWII Enfield "T" sniper rifles which is what I wanted it for. Ray

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  • 1 month later...

It is nice to see the input still coming to this strand I started back in 08. I am still convinced that my short leg stand is original military issue and that there would have been others. Here is a little more supporting evidence.

Recently sold on Ebay is a 1914 Sig.Tel.Stand MK V No6372 (no photo of designation - description only) with extra long legs in a 'knock down' construction This extra long stand looks right in every respect for being original WW1 period manufacture. What is interesting to me is that despite the different extra long leg form the designation on the brasswork stays the same as the standard long leg form. This suggests that if short leg versions were also made they would also retain the standard designation on the brasswork, thus making it impossible to rule short leggers out as WW1 manufacture and issue on this basis. .

post-42384-0-97059000-1301824754.jpg

post-42384-0-06338100-1301824777.jpg

post-42384-0-85454000-1301825891.jpg

post-42384-0-99741700-1301826368.jpg

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What has been proved,......is WW1 tripods were converted post WW1, with the above 1916 made example re designated by Canadian use, NO. 21, MK 5 is a post 1914-1918 mark that shows how long these tripods were in use, and time to post war modify.

I have to say the only thing that can be seen to this extra long tripod, is the extra brass joins are made of shinny brass, not the same as the rest of the brass work, that was blackened during manufacturing.

It is a later add on, just like the short conversions, that is all that has been proved.....

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  • 2 weeks later...

[attachmen138292:War%20Nations%20-%20Pages%20015.jpg]

t=I have to say the only thing that can be seen to this extra long tripod, is the extra brass joins are made of shinny brass, not the same as the rest of the brass work, that was blackened during manufacturing.

It is a later add on, just like the short conversions, that is all that has been proved.....

I also thought at first that this was a post Great War modification but there is lots of evidence that it isn't. The close up photo of the legs shows the brass ferrules looking a funny colour but this is a flash photo (check the shadows) and does not include the other brasswork for comparison. This cannot be relied on as a measure of age for the brass ferrules. (As an aside - I have never ever seen a MKV tripod - excluding the WW2 conversions - in photo or life that has evidence of being blacked like the sig.tel. telescopes - they seem just patinated dark with age).

Checking out the other photos that show both the ferrules and the head in the same image - in these the ferrules seem to match the head clamp brasswork.

The leg wood on the main tripod body looks an exact match for the extensions and both look to be a perfect match to the surviving examples of the original standard unmodified long leg MK V tripods.

I wondered if two MK V stands had been cannibalised to make this stand but this is not possible because of the taper to the legs. If this had been attempted - then where the extensions join there would be a 'step' as the thicker extension leg meets up with the thinner taper of the main leg. The photo however shows a perfect taper for the full length of the legs - they must have been made together with the intent of producing an extra long leg stand.

I cannot see anyone going to the trouble of making demountable extra long legs for a MKV after the Great War - this quality of work is not a d.i.y. job and why would a instrument maker bother or someone pay a lot of money for this. Also note that this tripod is not for indoor display or use - it has the standard MKV metal spikes for use in the field.

Also, extra long leg telescope tripods were used in the great war, here is a picture of one though this is not a MKV.

[attachmen138292:War%20Nations%20-%20Pages%20015.jpg]

post-42384-0-25051200-1302862178.jpg

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The stands were blackened as both of my examples, all of the others except ones that have had the post war polish, "from those who like things shinny" or worn with so much use.

Signal Telescopes were blackened, so were heliographs and heliograph stands, it is standard of the era and manufacturing.. and if it is not on the example it has been polished off or worn of once again.... the same goes with binoculars.

It sounds like you have only seen worn out examples.

You need to look harder as the top section of the tripod is blackened the Butterfly nut is polished brass as it should be also the bolts that hold the legs together would be or been brass with a lacquer orignally it is not Patina.

The joins on extension are clearly just polished brass where they should be blackened if made in the factory for this

This has been modified, and not for signal work.

The example in the pics above looks quite flimsy with the extensions....... I am not convinced it is a war time modification.....

The bottom telescope you have shown is specailly designed for Artilery use and standing only the legs are one section.

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  • 1 year later...

Hi folks,

I have one of these, a “SIG. TEL. STAND, MARK V No. 1812”, also with short legs.

Made by Baird & Tatlock of Glasgow, and dated 1913.post-94884-0-98413000-1359994144_thumb.j

I acquired it in the 1950s for use with my 3 draw spotting scope for target shooting.

The metalwork is all brass, except for the ends of the legs, which are steel. This I find surprising, as it’s these parts especially, that I would have expected to be brass, to avoid corrosion when in contact with the ground. The legs measure 37 cm from the pivot point at the top to the end point at the bottom.

There is still some black paint showing on the brass at the top, but most has worn off, and there are a couple of broad arrows stamped into the brass.post-94884-0-02426700-1359994144_thumb.j, post-94884-0-91591600-1359994146_thumb.j, post-94884-0-79758600-1359994145_thumb.j, I hope this might add something to the short/long discussion, and if I can give any more detail, please let me know.

Having now sold the spotting scope on eBay, I’m considering doing likewise with the tripod, but wonder in which country I would find the most interest. From the posts here, I guess I shouldn’t just confine it to the UK.

Len M.

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A good point made that if the long pods were cut down they would most likely be in various lengths where as original manufactured ones would all be the same lenght.

In regard to that statement, the length of the legs on my original tripod, measured from where they enter the tubes of the base, to the very tip of the metal feet, is one foot, (12"). The overall length of the tripod from the top edge of the clamp to the tip of the feet is 17-1/2".

These dimensions may help folks determine whether their short tripod had been cut down or not. With the understanding that the cut down ones probably wouldn't be of the same originally manufactured length, Ray

Hi Ray,

Out of interest, I've just measured mine (see post #67) and the measurements corresponding to yours are half inch longer. 12.5" & 18".

Looking at mine, I would have said that everything about it appears to be original, though I don't profess to be an expert.

Len

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  • 5 years later...

I collect military tripods and have 20 dated from 1915 to 1944 made in UK, Australia and Canada. All have a common design but minor differences in assembly components. The WW1 models have carry straps of leather and canvas, rounded feet on legs and varnished legs. The WW2 models straps are entirely canvas, have olive painted legs and fittings, two facet surfaces on leg feet. I am slowly restoring them to pristine condition, polishing all brass components, varnishing legs and repairing straps to be leather and canvas. Will probably sell many of them off but will keep seven to match the heliographs I also collect.

      

IMG_2237.JPG

IMG_2239.jpg

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How much would you be selling the WW1 signalling scope stands for? Are they complete?

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It pains me to say I saw this happen, but, in the early 1970's some of these were in the hands of a local authority who in turn wanted to upgrade their surveying section equipment. Not wanted by the survey equipment supplier they were sold off to a "collection service", who literally, in the car park, smashed off the wooden legs and threw the brass work into a bucket.

 

If only........

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On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 02:52, museumtom said:

How much would you be selling the WW1 signalling scope stands for? Are they complete?

Yes, I have five  WW1 stands. They are complete although the old leather and webbing in the carry straps was cracked so I am replacing them with assistance from a leather worker. I have no idea what to sell them for as my restoration continues as a hobby only. The two photos above show one completely restored. I have had to get some missing components made, the common ones being the hook and the chain with its fittings. Sorry for the delay in answering, due my unfamiliarity with this site. 

     

Edited by ProntoAust
Info omitted in draft.
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  • 4 weeks later...

Some of them are showing the opposed WD arrows that denote Sold Out Of Service. That suggests the story might be more complicated than just left behind in stores?

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