Signalling Telescope Stands (Tripods),

[reese williams]

Good catch on the eyepiece stowage. I'm guessing it's unit unique although probably copied by others. It does make for a neater package.

Now for more added confusion. I may have inadverdantly lead us astray by posting pics of the rangefinder tripod. It is posssible that that is a WWII item. I have two, the one I pictured, the marking on which are obscured by the black paint. I believe it is date 1917 but may be in error. I have another which has been stripped of paint and is clearly marked 1942. If anyone has an LOC entry on that tripod I'd love to see it.

Here, however, is another RF tripod, clearly dated 1916 that is even shorter than the short wooden tripods. I've shown it with the No.2 rangefinder wich is 36" long and 4.5" at its widest. So, no it won't fit in a tunic pocket, although the tripod would.

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

The storage of the high 30x or low 15x under the telescope body in this way, is how it was intended to be stored! nothing special or unusual.

Did the scout Reg telescope ever come with more than one lens when Issued?

As for what is under the arm of the officer is it just a group shot in the UK not at the front it may not be a serious bit of kit!!, it could be anything under his arm.

is it a sword on his left hip? the photo is not very clear, also has a walking stick in the right hand from what I can see.

[philsr]

Good spot! I have looked at the photo several times and did not notice.

Having bought one on Ebay that came with the spare eyepiece rigged up as shown in the photo I changed the other scopes that I had to the same configuration.

It may not be the 'official' way of doing it, but it's a much more practical set up than having the spare eyepiece damgling precariously on the carrying strap.

Regards

Philsr

[dundeesown]

This pic any good for you.

caption from book= During 58th Division`s advance across Chipilly Ridge on 9th August 1918,signallers report to a contact plane:while the soldier on the left keeps a look-out for messages from the front line,the man on the right uses a heliograph to signal.(IWM Q9191) From the book ( British Army Handbook 1914-1918 Andrew Rawson )

[dundeesown]

Another pic for you

Caption=The moment the infantry had trained for,going over the top.With Zero hour approaching,men of the 13th Durham Light Infantry anxiously watch the artillery on Dumbarton Wood prior to 23rd Division`s attack along the Menin Road. (IWM Q5971 ) British Army Handbook-Andrew Rawson.

[MikB]

Did the scout Reg telescope ever come with more than one lens when Issued?

AFAIK the Scout Reg was only ever provided with the one 20x or 22x eyepiece depending on which military manual you read. This has a flange on the brass eyelens holder that rests against the threaded end of the eyepiece drawtube and is retained by the eyecup.

Interestingly, the Scout Reg eyecup has an internal thread cut, so you can screw in the cell from a Signalling scope after having removed the eyecup that comes attached with it. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you might want to do this, though, as the benefits in either field of view or magnification are minimal - unless it's to allow cannibalisation to cobble a usable instrument out of two or more damaged ones.

I tried the interleaved-loop stowage for the spare eyepiece case on my Signaller some time ago, but I abandoned it because there are conditions when carrying it where it puts more strain on the loops. It seemed safer to allow it the flex you get from storing it independently on the strap.

Regards,

MikB

[srf]

This pic any good for you

Thanks for posting these pictures they are very interesting. This brings the total to five for photos I have now seen of the long leg Mk V in WW1 usage.

Whilst they don't show a short leg telescope stand in use, they certainly show that there was value in a short leg stand in a trench situation. In both the situations shown, the soldiers could just as easily have rested the 'scope on a sandbag, rock, or parapet edge yet they chose the Mk V stand even though the long legs made it awkward for the circumstances. As I suggested previously I think this was because the stand clamp would 'hold' the 'scope on target and also keep it out of the dirt and dust. A short leg Mk V would be much easier to use in these circumstances as MikB suggested after my first post.

The photos point up what an awkward height the long leg Mk V is. It is not high enough to stand up to use or even high enough to use on a chair or stool. I needs the user to kneel or to sit on the floor. Sitting on the floor is hard work for many men and ideally the user needs to find a comfy backrest or low box or sandbag to sit on for a bit of comfort. Below is a photo of a signaller who has organised himself a low seat for some comfort.

On rough ground and without something to sit on none of the alternatives look nice be it sitting, kneeling or lying. Below is a webpage, scroll down to find a photo of a signaller in this situation trying to make the best of it with an awkward pose.

http://www.remuseum.org.uk/corpshistory/rem_corps_part14.htm

Interestingly, before the Great War the signalling telescope was provided with a low stand to be used lying down. This was twin simple 'trestle' type folding tripods. Below is a picture. I have two more images of this set up but cannot fit them here, I will have to put them in other posts.

Using twin tripods without clamps enabled the telescope to 'hold' the target in the way the later Mk V clamped version could do with a single tripod.

There are problems with using the short tripod. There is the comfort issue and also there would be difficulties setting up in grassy or scrubby terrain. Introducing the long leg Mk V solved some problems but was not without its downsides. If the military did supply short leg Mk V tripods in WW1 it would be understandable as a useful alternative provision.

Steve

[srf]

ref previous post another picture

Steve

and another...

Steve

[dundeesown]

Another old one from The Black Watch Photographic Archive

.

Gary.F.

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Nice photos all.

The long leg tripod is the most useful as it can be adjusted to any height, it is not awkward if you try using one.

The short tripod would be a pain for Heliograph and lamp and flag work.

No evidence points to the short leg telescope of the Mk111 or V, as being a issue item in WW1.

[srf]

Another short leg Mk V (or No 21), unfortunately no markings info' given with image.

By my theory this looks like another cut down long leg version, note the thick legs tenoned into the brass and also whats looks like a taper to the legs (though this could be perspective distortion from the photo). Also the spikes are not offset.

Interestingly there is the remants of green paint on the tripod. This suggests military use at some time, possibly WW2. This is supported by the stand shown below.

This is a New Zealand made Mk V No 21 version of WW2. I can't believe anyone would paint a tripod such a vile colour for civilian use and this is a little evidence that the short leg Mk V tripods with green paint (that is three I have come across now) were WW2 issue. They could have been issued as long leg versions and later cut down or issued in short leg form. It is more likely I guess that they were issued in short leg form. This is the web page with more info about this tripod.

http://www.hobbyswoodmilitaria.co.uk/ww2-m...2545-1068-p.asp

This tripod shows similarities with the tripods shown by Reese a few posts back. The legs are not tapered and also the spikes are misaligned like Reese's long leg tripod. This suggests to me that the legs are not hickory but an inferior type wood for this application. Hickory is very hard and resilient which is why it was used for archery bows and golf club shafts and is still used for tool handles. Not tapering the legs would give more strength if an inferior timber was used. This would also account for the spikes being misaligned. If the legs worked loose in the sockets because the small screws lost grip in a softish wood it would be natural to turn them in the sockets to expose fresh wood for refitting the screws, turning the spikes out of alignement in the process. The timbers on Reese's tripods do not look like hickory to me but I am just going on the lack of shrinkage. Hickory is used as a generic name for a type of timber drawn from many similar tree species so i.d. is difficult. I guess the tripods with the non tapered legs could be the result of shortfall in hickory supply or perhaps because they were all made outside the UK. If made outside the UK there might not have been the wood machining facilities available for producing tapered legs.

Steve

[humber1]

Can anyone confirm please when the MkV Heliograph was introduced?

[reese williams]

This tripod shows similarities with the tripods shown by Reese a few posts back. The legs are not tapered and also the spikes are misaligned like Reese's long leg tripod.

Steve,

The feet on both of my tripods are the same, and set the same way on the legs. They are not misaligned, rather they are set so that when the tripod is open the points are aimed straight down.

"This suggests to me that the legs are not hickory but an inferior type wood for this application. Hickory is very hard and resilient which is why it was used for archery bows and golf club shafts and is still used for tool handles. Not tapering the legs would give more strength if an inferior timber was used. This would also account for the spikes being misaligned. "

The legs on both of mine are some variety of hardwood. While I am most familiar with North American woods they certainly resemble hickory. I'll grant you they could be a related species but deninitely not a soft wood.

Again, my short tripod looks as though it was manufactured that way. The joining, fitting, patina etc. speaks against it being a field or civilian conversion. I am pretty certain all of the parts have been together, as is, since the beginning. The question is still, when was that beginning?

[srf]

The feet on both of my tripods are the same, and set the same way on the legs. They are not misaligned, rather they are set so that when the tripod is open the points are aimed straight down.

Reese

What caught my eye on your long leg Mk V was that one of the spike points did not come into the centre with the stand folded up. You short leg Mk V, like mine, has the legs and spikes fitted so that the points come together at the centre when the stand is folded. My assumption is that this is 'right' for the Mk V/ No 21. On your long leg tripod it seems to me that one leg is rotated out of the 'right' alignement leaving the spike point apart from the others when folded. On the biliius green New Zealand stand it seems to me that two of the legs are rotated out of the 'right' alingement - spreading the spike points apart when the stand is folded. I have only seen this situation on these two stands with the non tapered legs.

This seems very sloppy manufacturing if this is how the stands were originally assembled. This is why I suggested the legs had been repositioned. When I suggested softish wood might be the reason for this I was thinking of a softer hardwood than hickory, ash for example which has quite an open grain, not a 'softwood'. Hickory is tight grained and also as it ages it shrinks and grips fixings like screws, making it very good for this application compared with many other timbers.

I have had another look at an earlier post of another New Zealand made Mk V/No. 21. I show it below because the web page I posted it on seems to be unavailable. Unfortunately the image is very poor quality but there is similarly a suspicion here of non tapered legs but on this stand the spike points seem to come together neatly.

I agree with you regarding your short leg Mk V. It looks right for being as originally assembled and also looks right for being assembled many years ago - pre WW2 seems believable to me from looking at your photos.

Steve

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

The New Zealand Green made tripods seem to be produced about 1944 and most seem to have never been used at all the date is usually on the carry strap.

Pre this date we had British made stands.

We also produced Heliograph, Daylight signal lamp tripods at the same time 1944,

I think you will find the items you see NZ made, we sold off overseas as army surplus at one stage.

[reese williams]

SRF,

The bit about the points not aligning is a fault of the photo. All the feet on the long tripod are aligned the same, they come to a point when the legs are closed so that they form a triangle. The problem arises from the leather loop on the bottom of the sling. When it is slipped up the legs in the carry mode it tries to force the legs to lie three abreast as it were, rather than in a triangle. That's what's causing the picture to look like the one point is misaligned.

[srf]

Reese,

Thanks for this, my mistake, as you say it comes from my reading the photo incorrectly. Looking again I can see a simililar situation with the green tripod. The legs must be twisted when inserted in the leather loop to splay the spikes this way.

Steve

[srf]

is it a sword on his left hip? the photo is not very clear, also has a walking stick in the right hand from what I can see.

This is a reference back to the photo of the Irish Guards officer with a puzzle item under his arm.

I happenen to flick through some WW1 history books whilst visiting a library in another region and saw a Great War officer with Sam Browne and pistol. The pistol holster was not on the waist belt but slung 'cowboy' style on a couple of straps from the belt. My bet would be that this is what the officer has on his left hip hanging just like a sword.

Annoyingly I remembered this post and took a note of the publication but lost it. I think it was the book exclusively devoted to pictures of soldiers on the outbreak of war called 'The British Army of August 1914' by Westlake but I am not 100%.

Steve

[srf]

Some expert support for the view that some of the short leg Mk V tripods were used in the Great War.

I have received the following observations on my short leg Mk V telescope stand from the well-known military history weapons expert Martin Pegler who has allowed me to post this for the benefit of the forum. Mr Pegler is a recognised authority regarding the weapons of the Great War and also the history of military sniping.

"The tripod you have is the Mk V signallers/scout tripod. They were issued for front line use, the big tripod being too unwieldy and difficult to conceal. The small tripod could be used from a sniper's hide or signallers/artillery spotter's position, though in practice they seem to have been little used as it was just as easy to rest the scope on a sandbag and cover it with camouflage. I have never come across a photo of one in use, all the pictures I have show telescopes being laid flat on a sandbag or parapet. The Canadians seemed to like the little tripods and I've had a couple that were British made but Canadian marked, though I've never come across one dated later then 1916, which could just be coincidence. The telescopes for scouting/sniping were supposed to be 20x but snipers begged, borrowed and often stole 'scopes from anywhere they could [artillery units were a popular target, if you'll excuse the pun] and there was a huge choice from makers such as Ross, Negretti, Broadhurst, Beck, Dollond etc. [though you probably know this already....] so all sorts of different power scopes were used. Hope that is of help."

Stephen

[MikB]

The telescopes for scouting/sniping were supposed to be 20x but snipers begged, borrowed and often stole 'scopes from anywhere they could [artillery units were a popular target, if you'll excuse the pun] and there was a huge choice from makers such as Ross, Negretti, Broadhurst, Beck, Dollond etc. [though you probably know this already....] so all sorts of different power scopes were used. Hope that is of help."

Stephen

Although many telescopes in use were around 20 - 25x in power, this was because it was a de facto standard for deerstalking, many scouts were drawn from deerstalking backgrounds and brought their own telescopes. As far as I know the official issue was always the GS telescope (Tel Sig. Mk. II, III or IV) with 15x and 30x eyepieces. I'm sure arty telescopes would be used if that was what there was to be had, but they were unwieldy compared to the GS if the scout/sniper pair had to be mobile.

Regards,

MikB

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

Well for signal work as shown in the photographs the only one size tripod seems to exist in use the issue size.

The issue size tripod works fine in trenches as shown in the photograps on here.

[srf]

On another thread (Irish Guards officer) I posted this photo of an Irish Guards officer. It was probably taken before the war or soon after the war began, as he was killed in October, 1914.

It looks as if it is a tripod. What do the experts think? Is that how it was carried?

Michael

As promised and detailed in an earlier post here are two images where I have rigged my tripod on the same strap as my tel.sig. type telescope and slung the kit over the shoulder as per the Irish Guards officer Photo. For me this is very persuasive evidence that the Officer is carrying a telescope and short leg tripod and by extension that short leg tripods were issued in the Great War. I cannot think of any other piece of military kit that fits the bill as well as the tripod and if the officer was an intelligence officer for example, he would likely have a telescope for forward observation.

Although I am convinced that the officer is carrying a 'scope and tripod it might not be the Mk V tripod as these are nearly all dated 1916. The only other date I have seen on what looks like a 'genuine' short legger is 1915. It is possible I guess that is is the officer's personal kit - I have read that officers often took personal kit to war.

I did not use the leather strap of my telescope because it is slightly worn and did not want to put the extra load of the tripod on it. I used a thin cord instead but the strap would have worked just as well

Steve

[Michael Pegum]

Although I am convinced that the officer is carrying a 'scope and tripod it might not be the Mk V tripod as these are nearly all dated 1916. The only other date I have seen on what looks like a 'genuine' short legger is 1915. It is possible I guess that is is the officer's personal kit - I have read that officers often took personal kit to war.

Steve

That is very convincing, and I think you must be right. It explains why it is pointing upwards. Well done!

Lt. George Brooke had served in South Africa with the Hampshire Regiment. I assume that, in that war, officers needed telescopes or binoculars a lot and, as you say, they may have had to provide their own. Another officer I am researching, as late as 1918, was using his own compass and had to send it home for repair!

Michael.

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

It is very had to tell from a blury photograph only showing some type of tripods legs, not showing what is at the other end or the total length!!!

As I have never seen a sigs telesope tripod that was not military marked, they are not private purchase.

All the shot ones type I have seen are military marked...

The photograps and information point to the standard size as the one in use during ww1.

J

[rayg]

I just got these last week and I see this thread is about the tripods so the tripod and sling might be of interest here. The tripod has no indication of being cut down and the sling was originally made for the short tripod.

When the strap is extended it's full length, not counting the canvas section which is stopped by the loops on the legs, it measures 22-1/2" from the bottom of the top cap to the top of the leather slide. The canvas section is 18", Ray