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Remembered Today:

Researching cemetery photo


BottsGreys

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Terry, thanks for advising me on the CWGC search parameters and to everyone else who has contributed to this thread.

Chris

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Guest michaelv

Chris,

after 6 days of searching and calling the VDK several times, I finally got an answer. Unfortunately there is absolutely no information about the first burial place, neither Musketier Otto Hornschuh, nor Unteroffizier Wilhelm Koch. Therefore we also can not locate the cemetery on your photo.

I am very sorry.

Michael

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This is one of the most interesting threads I have read in a while. It almost makes me want to find unidentified pictures and see what can be dug up.

Andy

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Per Andy, the burial of these 3 men--

C. Greenman, 1st Monmouths

J. Middleton, 8th D.L.I

J. Weir, 2nd Cheshires

in adjacent graves in Tyne Cot seems pretty strong evidence that these are the men in the 2 left English graves in the photo. It seems that the odds that it could be anyone else are pretty prohibitive. Any thoughts?

Chris,

I would tend to agree. I also think that the partial name is Nessworthy as he is buried in Plot LXII.C.10. This is in the next row in Tyne Cot. I don't know how many burials per row there are in these plots but his could well be the last in one row C with the others starting off the next.

The best way to identify the original place of burial would be to contact the CWGC. The bodies were obviously moved and they have records of disinterment, including original map references.

Andy.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Joris Ryckeboer

Hello Members and especially Chris,

I passed Tyne Cot today and found the time to stop! I toke some interesting pictures!

Rifleman Greenman C., 3137, Monmouthshire Regiment, died 10 May 15 and Private Middleton J., 2731, DLI, died 10 May 15 (Also!!), Age 19 (Death Divedes But Memoty Clings) are indeed buried in the same row. But in between them, is actually buried Rifleman Edwards J., 2750, Monmouthshire Regiment, died 23rd May 1915. Age 23.

Private Nessworthy M., 10134, East Lancashire Regiment, died 17/5/1915 and Serjeant Weir J., 6907, Cheshire Regiment, died 13/5/1915, are buried next to eachother, but... 50 meters (an other plot) from Greenman and Middleton.

Lets torture our brains!

Regards,

Joris Ryckeboer

Westouter-Flanders

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Joris Ryckeboer

Now a pic of Nessworthy and Weir. Remarks the stone, engraved panels. They are buried after the Cross of Sacrifice almost at the end of the cemeterie.

post-1-1081197936.jpg

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Joris Ryckeboer

To explain where the two spots are located;

This is a picture token standing behind Private Middletons stone. Following the same curve, but two plots wider, is the plot with Weir and Nessworthy. (You may see in the middle of the picture my bag against the start of their plot.)

post-1-1081198361.jpg

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Joris Ryckeboer

If someone wants a detailed photograf of their individual stone, I will also place them on the forum.

Greets,

Joris

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Joris:

Thanks so much for the photos. I want you to know how appreciative I am that you brought such a poignant addition to this thread. You do good work. Thanks for your thoughtfulness in obtaining and sharing these images.

Regards,

Chris

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Joris Ryckeboer

No problem, Chris!

I like that kind of fieldwork.

But after some thinking (it didn't hurt...!); I am sure they were moved from elswhere, like the Germans. Because of the design of the cemeterie and the History of Tyne Cot Cem. (see history and plans on www.cwgc.org)

The plots LXIII (Middleton and Greenman) and LXII (Nessworthy and Weir) are in half a cirkle(see also my photo), east of the Cross of Sacrifice and with behind them the stone panels of the memorial to the missing.

This shape is not common, but it is a beautiful design.

To be sure, I think also the CWGC have the full history of them. Where they were buried original, if they were not buried at Tyne Cot, but on an other spot.

Are there not books written about the historie of Tyne Cot?

Extract from the history of Tyne Cot Cemeterie:

"TYNE COT CEMETERY was greatly enlarged after the Armistice when remains were brought in from the battlefields of Passchendaele and Langemarck, and from a few small burial grounds."

Greetings from Belgium,

Joris

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  • 5 years later...

Chris Baker's current thread in "Chit-Chat" regarding the upcoming 7th birthday of the GWF prompted me to go back and bring this 2004 thread to the top. Of all the threads I've started (which, granted, are few compared with some of the Old Sweats) this is one that has really meant a lot to me. I was a relative newbie to the Forum, knew a hell of a lot less about the War than I do now--not that I now know all that much, and was recuperating from major back surgery. The fact that the Pals were able to so quickly identify these men showed me the power of the Forum.

Since this is such an old thread, I had to go in and reload my photos. I cannot reload Joris' 3 images of Tyne Cot within their posts, but at the time he sent me copies, so I am loading them to follow, with his captions.

Chris

Picture of the row of Middleton and Greenman. Middleton-Edwards-Greenman.
Actually, reading L-R in the first photo, they are Greenman-Edwards-Middleton

Now a pic of Nessworthy and Weir. Remarks the stone, engraved panels. They are buried after the Cross of Sacrifice almost at the end of the cemeterie.

post-1571-1254628363.jpg

post-1571-1254628410.jpg

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To explain where the two spots are located;

This is a picture token standing behind Private Middletons stone. Following the same curve, but two plots wider, is the plot with Weir and Nessworthy. (You may see in the middle of the picture my bag against the start of their plot.)

Joris

post-1571-1254628622.jpg

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  • 2 years later...

After these several years, I suddenly realized I had never checked the four men identified in this thread in de Ruvigny's Roll of Honor and in doing so last night, found Pte. Middleton:

Middleton, John Liddle

Pte., No. 2731

1/8th Durham Light Infantry

"...was wounded in the fighting at Ypres on 26 April, 1915, by a gun-shot wound in the head, and taken prisoner, and is stated to have laid for 36 hours, in a greenhouse, without water or care. He died of his wounds at Ostneeuw Kerke (Oostnieuwkerke), Belgium, two days after his twentieth birthday, 10 May, 1915."

I note from one of Aurel Sercu's threads regarding his research into Flanders Cemeteries that there was, in fact, a German cemetery at Oostnieuwkerke, where Middleton died. Wouldn't the mixed-burial cemetery in the pic at the beginning of this thread most likely be that cemetery?

I edited the title of this thread to add the "possibly Oostnieuwkerke".

Chris

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Chris,

Somehow I feel the answer to your initial question - and the end of your quest - is in this posting. :-)

This is the information I have re Cemeteries in Oostnieuwkerke.

In the "Kouterweg" there was a German Cemetery (also or later called N° 31).

Co-ordinates : 20.W.9.b.65-95

Number of German graves : 680

UK : one of my sources says 2, a second source 20, and the most recent (and I think most reliable) source says : 24.

The German graves later were moved to the German Cemetery of De Ruiter (a hamlet near Roeselare (Roulers). (And I guess later they were moved to Menin.)

The UK graves were moved to .......... Tyne Cot Cemetery Plot 62, row C, graves 1-15

and Plot 63, row C, 1-9

(Something tells me these have been mentioned in a previous posting. :-)

There also was Oostnieuwkerke Churchyard.

German : 202

UK : 6

Canadian : 5.

And now : the search for a pic.

Aurel

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Chris,

Pic 2

It doesn't say "Oostnieuwkerke", but I am 99 % sure it is. If you compare this pic the the previous one, you see that for in this one here the photographer was standing in front of the gate, and for the one in my previous posting he (the same photographer ?) had just passed through the gate and was standing in front of that circular piece of lawn. No doubt.

I must say when I first saw that pic, I had my doubts. The reason : there was also a cemetery "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden" on the road Poelkapelle - Houthulst. But comparing the two pics shows that they are different. (I guess these famous words "Ich hatt'einen Kameraden" were used for more than one cemetery.)

If you want the two pics in my own resolution, let me know what your e-mail address is.

And - I almost forgot - my information regarding the UK men moved to Tyne Cot cemetery, and this second pic comes from :

Franky Bostyn (and others), Passchendaele 1917, 2007, p. 244 (English version maybe a different page).

Aurel

post-92-0-13184600-1330364347.jpg

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Aurel:

Thank you for this confirmation my pic is at Oostnieuwkerke. I am grateful to you for the information and for posting the photos. I am quite excited to see this cemetery identified after all these years. My appreciation also to everyone who helped with the identifications of Greenman, Middleton, Nessworthy, Weir, and Hornschuh.

I can't believe I didn't have sense enough to check de Ruvigny's long before this. I should say that the de Ruvigny's entry for Middleton has a pic of him which, although its not the clearist, makes it all the more poignant. I didn't post because of the copyright issues with Ancestry.

Again, thanks for the pics. If you look closely at the fence in the rear of my photo, you can see it is the same design as that in your pic #2.

I appreciate the offer of the scans and will email you.

Chris

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