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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Lee Enfield!


G.Driver 10thLF

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anyone know where i can find and buy a a genuine ww1 lee enfield. im not up on my guns so which marks should i look for and any tips on buying?

cheers

graham

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Hiya.

There is a forum member with a 3 cut off,matching numbers, who may sell it.I sold it to him for 320 so I reckon that's what you'd pay.That is 100 less than an on line/shop/ dealer without matching no.s.

Dave.

PM me or email if you want to link to him

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I may be buying one of my own in a day or two :o

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Here is one I just finished "restoring" to military configuration after it had been "sporterized".

It's a 1915 London Small Arms MkIII, with cut-off,windage adjustable rear sight, but no volley sight (apparently none ever fitted as original wood was not inletted for it). Original barrel and all matching numbers (Receiver, Barrel, Bolt handle, underside of rear sight) except the foresight protector which was missing when I purchased the rifle and has been replaced with an unnumbered one. No importer's stamp which usually means it was sold onto the US market prior to 1968. Bore is good, perfectly usable but not perfect. (Note: Not an ad. this isn't for sale!)

post-14525-1231988584.jpg

To answer the original question - suggest you search the forum - there have been lots of previous threads on this. If you are in the UK (I assume you are) then you would probably also need to specify if you are contemplating buying a live firing version or a deactivated one.

Also - without opening too many cans of worms - what you mean by a "genuine" WWI rifle. Do you mean a rifle manufactured in WWI or one that is totally unchanged from the day it was produced etc.

Quick primer on markings:

On the metal "wrist" of the rifle (right side under where bolt handle rests) you will find all British Mk III SMLEs marked in the same fashion CROWN / GR /MANUFACTURE/DATE/MODEL so the rifle pictured above is Crown/GR/LSA Co/1915/Sht LE III (Indian rifles are marked GRI)

British manufacturers are Enfield, BSA. LSA Co, (Australian Lithgow, Indian Ishapore - marked GRI or RFI). You will rarely find some rifles marked SSA on the rear of the receiver - these are "peddled scheme" rifles assembled from parts (in WWII called "Dispersal production"). Some late production (1960s on) Indian rifles among those currently being imported into the US have totally blank wrists.

The rifles are numbered on the rear face of the bolt handle, the receiver, the barrel knox form, the underside of the rear sight, the foresight protector (on the bayonet boss) and sometimes on the underside of the wooden fore-end just behind the foresight protector. Collectors usually prefer all these numbers to match. Sometimes you will find renumbering -(some numbers struck out and new ones added) this is very common if a rifle has been through FTR (Factory Thorough Refinishing). Sometimes they will bear an FTR stamp and date on the left side of the wrist. Ishapore seems to have been quite diligent at doing this.

One place to look for interesting markings is under the rear handguard on the barrel (where it screws into the receiver - here you will find proofs, test marks, dates etc and often a number of other marks.

Armourer's marks or ownership marks are often stamped into the barrel knox form in the semi-circle that is cut out of the upper handguard. Here you might find a large * or a script "R" both of which indicate an armourer found rust in the barrel. Stamps to watch out for if it is live firing rifle are DP. EY. and GF (Drill Purpose, Emergency Use Only, and Grenade Firing respectively) these are indications that the rifle was removed from front line usage and relegated to other jobs (Drill, sometimes actually deactivated often not, etc). Ownership marks you might see D^D (Australia) C around an arrow (Canada) U with an arrow in it South Africa...etc.. the stampings and marking are really too numerous to list. I would suggest if you are serious about getting a decent rifle, you should have a look at Skennerton's "The Lee Enfield Story" (now out in a new edition). This is the most comprehensive single volume. Far cheaper and concentrating on the SMLE No1 is the late Skip Stratton's "British Enfield Rifles Vol 1 SMLE No1" in the North Cape "for collectors only" series - it is a very handy reference.

Hope this helps a bit,

Chris

Edited by 4thGordons
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Looks good Chris... Well Done!

Seph

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And good info too, Chris. When I get my BSA 1918 SMLE, it'll be interesting to look for those other marks on it and see what story it can tell me.

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that looks sexy chris. i wants it :) thanks for the tips. i live in manchester so am looking in the uk for one. as for ww1 i mean id like one produced and used in the war. this is probably a silly demand because i can imagine its hard to prove whats been used where. i didnt know you could buy active rifles, i thought you could only buy deactivaded ones!

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i didnt know you could buy active rifles, i thought you could only buy deactivaded ones!

You can only own a live firer with a suitable FAC - which guessing by your post you don't have so a de-act' it will have to be like the rest of us! ;)

As above though, have a search too - there have been many lengthy topics on buying a SMLE over the years.

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Guest thewanderingmind
Here is one I just finished "restoring" to military configuration after it had been "sporterized".

It's a 1915 London Small Arms MkIII, with cut-off,windage adjustable rear sight, but no volley sight (apparently none ever fitted as original wood was not inletted for it). Original barrel and all matching numbers (Receiver, Barrel, Bolt handle, underside of rear sight) except the foresight protector which was missing when I purchased the rifle and has been replaced with an unnumbered one. No importer's stamp which usually means it was sold onto the US market prior to 1968. Bore is good, perfectly usable but not perfect. (Note: Not an ad. this isn't for sale!)...

post-14525-1231988584.jpg

Chris, may I admit to taking in a deep breath when I saw this one? That is an absolutely beautiful example of a MkIII. How much time did you spend restoring this rifle? When and If - God willing - I get the funds, I plan to get a MkIII and restore it to its former glory... That is such nice work!

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I bought mine yesterday ... I'll post pictures when it arrives!

Chris, did you have to have any of the metal parts refinished?

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I bought mine yesterday ... I'll post pictures when it arrives!

Chris, did you have to have any of the metal parts refinished?

No I did not. The foresight protector was in very good / unissued shape but everything else is "used" / salvaged. The idea was not to create a "New" rifle but to restore the appearance to that of a 94 year old rifle in very good condition.

Some parts suppliers will offer new or refinished parts but I tend to stay away from those and use "period" parts. This is just a matter of taste. As my rifles are all functional I usually replace broken or non functional parts and leave it at that. This was a bit different in that the rifle had been modified and was incomplete. I'll dig out a picture of what it looked like, basically it had the forestock chopped down, hanguard and foresight protectors missing.

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I got one many years ago from an estate sale, it had been sporterized but I put it back in WWI condition with parts bought through Shotgun News. Looking for one today, I'd have to recommend gunbroker.com. It's something of an eBay for guns and I've had pretty good luck there. If you have the patience, buying one that's been sporterized and restoring it will save a lot of money, but if you want an original unmolested piece, those are rather difficult to find these days.

Good luck, they're out there, just keep your eyes (and wallet) open! Take care and God bless. :rolleyes:

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That's pretty cool that you left it in original condition. I've seen so many people restore old rifles by having the metal parts re-blued or re-parkerized or even worse -- chromed. It looks so unnatural.

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That's pretty cool that you left it in original condition. I've seen so many people restore old rifles by having the metal parts re-blued or re-parkerized or even worse -- chromed. It looks so unnatural.

I think depending on the severity of the crime, possibly Field Punishment No.1, but more probably Summary Execution.

Regards

TonyE

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I used to have one - 1917.

You can just see the top six inches. I wish I also had the CFA tunic, bandolier, and canteen.

And the hair

I really miss that.

post-8221-1232335932.jpg

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My fireable SMLE arrived today!

It's an 1918 SMLE Mk. III* made at Birmingham Small Arms. Buttstock looks like an arsenal replacement ... the wood is a different color that the rest of the stock pieces. All the rest of the metal and wood parts have matching serial numbers. Unfortunately the ID disk on the buttstock is blank. I don't supposed there's any way of finding out more on the rifle's history by the serial number, is there?

278146.jpg

278139.jpg

Also, I found this pullthrough inside the buttstock ... something tells me it's not right for an SMLE:

278138.jpg

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Matt... unfortunatelly, its very rare that one can ever find out as to which battalion the rifle was issued, or where it was used. Even if the butt-disc contained battalion info, there is no realistic way of telling if the disc is contempary to the rifle.

Your correct on one point.. that pullthrough. Its not original, nor an enfield. The one you should look for is brass weighted for WW1, and white metal weighted for WW2. I've posted a pic for you below.

Seph

post-18081-1232781084.jpg

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Unfortunately the ID disk on the buttstock is blank. I don't supposed there's any way of finding out more on the rifle's history by the serial number, is there?

Matt

Have you removed the butt disk? Sometimes they are reversed and the blank underside is exposed when a rifle is resold. I have a lovely 1916 SMLE and when I unscrewed mine I found the disk to be marked after all.

Gunner Bailey

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I thought of that ... all that was on the reverse was a chevron-like marking like this "^".

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My fireable SMLE arrived today!

It's an 1918 SMLE Mk. III* made at Birmingham Small Arms. Buttstock looks like an arsenal replacement ... the wood is a different color that the rest of the stock pieces. All the rest of the metal and wood parts have matching serial numbers. Unfortunately the ID disk on the buttstock is blank. I don't supposed there's any way of finding out more on the rifle's history by the serial number, is there?

278146.jpg

Hi Matt,

I was taught to have the long loop of the sling at the muzzle end... :D

My Mk.III* is a 1917 Enfield, and it stretches cases. Were you planning to reload for yours? I'd be interested to know where the case shoulder ends up after firing if you get a chance to post the info...

Regards,

MikB

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Interesting rifle Matt - and looks to be in decent shape too.

There are some oddities about it - which might speak to the history. A late production MkIII* would not usually be expected to have the stacking swivel, nor a butt-stock marking disk, nor the swivel mount on the trigger guard (replaced by a wire loop), nor the rounded cocking piece. All of these were niceties which were were deleted with the MkIII*

This suggests a couple of possibilities:

1) It is a very late 1918 produced one or a rifle assembled on a 1918 receiver some time after the war when the refinements were reintroduced.

or

2) It is a wartime rifle that was refinished after the war when (like Tony's) the various elements were reintroduced

or

3) At some time in its civilian ownership these parts have been added or replaced by a previous owner.

There is probably no way to tell which of these is the case - are there any FTR markings on it? (what markings are there on the top of the barrel under the rear upper hand guard (held in place by two strong clips and can be levered off CAREFULLY so you do not split the rather thin wood fingers that run either side of the rear sight.) Under here you should find the serial number on the barrel, a plethora of proof makings and possibly other information.

Do the numbers match (Bolt/Receiver/Barrel/underside of rear sight/foresight protector and if you are really luck wooden fore-end - stamped at the front just behind the foresight)? Renumbering (sometimes called "forced matching") of the bolt/rear sight etc would be indicative of No2 above.

The chevron on the back of the disk is probably a weakly struck broad arrow/crow's foot - the War Dept Mark.

If you intend to fire this rifle be sure you do a complete take-down and reassembly beforehand, and I would also suggest, unless you are very very confident (IE you would bet your life on it...because you will be!), that it is in safe condition to fire that you also have it checked by a qualified gunsmith.

The take-down/cleaning is very important - I have bought live-firers on numerous occasions which previous owners have told me they had "at the range last week" etc etc but on inspection all the trigger mechanisms and the small vent hole in the receiver etc were totally blocked with hard baked cosmolene/grease from years of storage...and on several occasions the locking lever (safety) was incorrectly assembled or non functioning, extractors were broken... the list goes on. None have ever been beyond repair but it is really worth checking. The gunsmith can check the headspace at the same time.

As pointed out nothing much regarding use or ownership can be divined from the serial number but there was a group collecting observed data a few years ago to which I contributed some and their reports / Skennerton suggest that BSA produced 345, 732 MkIII*s in 1918 (and an additional 100,000 in the next 20 years), They also suggest that BSA returned to the MkIII configuration (which with the exception of the cut-off is what your rifle is) in 1920.

What is the SERIAL NUMBER PREFIX on your rifle?

if 1918 it will probably be H, I, J or K, if a 1920s assembled rifle it will be L.

Either way it looks to be an excellent example - these were very common on the civilian market 20 years ago - but are far far less common (and more expensive!) now. Be warned, there is an addictive element to SMLEs!

Chris

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I have two Mk 111* SMLEs both deac and both 1917. One is a BSA and the other an Enfield. The BSA has a rounded cocking piece and the Enfield the squared slab varient. Both have had butt discs though removed and fitted with a wood plug and both have the swivel mount on the trigger guard. The Enfield has a J prefix and the BSA a G prefix. The wooden furnature matches across all parts of the rifles and just in front of the forward sling mount ring the wood dips inwards as in the case of the 1918 example featured in this post. This I am told is a good sign of an earlier rifle furnature.

The numbers match on the rifle but there are some differences for example on the sights and the forward sight / nose has had the circle for the bayonet loop ground down and re numbered.

There is nothing wrong with this as to find an as was SMLE is nigh on impossible There is one that is subject to a seperate thread.

Regards

TT

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There is nothing wrong with this as to find an as was SMLE is nigh on impossible There is one that is subject to a seperate thread.

Regards

TT

I wasn't suggesting that there was anything "wrong" with any of the features identified, sorry if I created that impression.

As I have observed in numerous other threads all of these variations are features of long and "real" service lives of the weapons.

Enfield produced so many rifles that J prefixes are observed in 1916/17 and 18

G was one of the 1917 prefixes at BSA (along with D, E, F and H)

BTW a summary of the serial number data collected via observation is included in Skip Stratton's book SMLE(No1) Rifles MkI and MkIII (isbn 1-882391-16-0)

Chris

Regarding fore-end shape - there are usually five variations identified -mid-later wartime ones often being "chunkier" in profile, however the slimmer profile was returned to immediately post war. There are numerous in-betweens (with volley sight base removed, higher wood covering the cut-off slot etc etc) Although it is a bit hard to tell from the picture posted this rifle appears to me to have MkIII* wood with a higher side (on right) covering the space where the cut off slot would have been on a MkIII. One finds MkIII bodies assembled with MkIII* wood and vice versa.

Edited by 4thGordons
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Chris,

Thanks for the reply re serial numbers as I wasnt aware of this info.

Many thanks

TT

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