chrisharley9 Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 Hi everbody another possible non commemorated - buried at Mount Pleasant Cemetery Wisbech His headstone shows NZ Army, Captain & Quartermaster died 4 Jan 1920 I have already found his DC ref & also evidence of 21 years service in the British Army (KOSBs & Irish Guards) being discharged as time expired in 1916. Now how do I search out the NZ connection - any advice appreciated Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Llewellyn Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 Hi Chris, I'm sure that one of the New Zealand pals will be able to assist. If I were you I'd bump the thread back up just before going to bed. Regards. Llew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 9 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2009 Llew thanks for that advice Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 Hi, Chris I've had a look on the nominal roll CDrom but cannot find him. I tried looking for all those who had Bertram in their names (who knew it would be so popular!), but there are none. The closest is: Surname MANGIN Given Name Bertram Category Second Reserves Last NZ Address 185A Cuba St Wellington Classification E However, as you can see on the reserves list with quite a number of children. The second division reserves classifications were as follows: Second Division Roll of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force Reserve The NZ Government created this list from August to October 1917. The classification is based on the number of children of a reservist: Class A - Reservists who have no children or who failed to provide adequate maintenance for their children Class B - Reservists who have one child Class C - Reservists who have two children Class D - Reservists who have three children Class E - Reservists who have four children Class F - Reservists who have more than four children He's not listed on the Auckland War Memorial cenotaph that I can see, nor can I find any files about him listed on the NZ Archives... I'll keep hunting! Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 10 January , 2009 Share Posted 10 January , 2009 He is not listed in the Records of the NZEF by Studholme - contemporary "bible" of such things. May he have joined after end of hostilities?? Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 10 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2009 Thanks everyone Having checked his British service records I dont think he ever went to NZ - the only thing that will prove this beyond a doubt will be the DC Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 10 January , 2009 Share Posted 10 January , 2009 Chris No sign of him having served in the NZ forces in the Boer War either I'm afraid. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 10 January , 2009 Share Posted 10 January , 2009 I've looked at my genealogy CDs, which include some school listings, etc. Not a sign of him in NZ. The only thing I can think of is if there is something at Trentham. Although most of the Boer War and First World War files have been transfered to the NZ Archives, what if he was in NZ for some other army reason, outside of those dates? Something to do with compulsory military training when that came in between those two wars, or something? Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 10 January , 2009 Share Posted 10 January , 2009 ... being discharged as time expired in 1916. He wasn't! He took up a commission in the Royal Irish Rifles. THE LONDON GAZETTE, 25 FEBRUARY, 1916. The Royal Irish Rifles. Bertram St. John Main to be temporary Quartermaster, with the honorary rank of Lieutenant Dated 12th February, 1916. (= the day after his "discharge" from the Irish Guards) SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 8 MARCH, 1919. GENERAL LIST. Infantry. - The undermentioned temp. Qrmrs. & Lts. to be Capts., under Art. 33A, R. Wt. for Pay and Promotion : — B. St. J. Main. 12th Feb. 1919. "Eligible for SWB 22.5.19", so his death may very well be service-related. I'm puzzled by "Reply on EF9 from Capt. B.St J. Main 17.10.20", when he apparently died in January 1920... No New Zealand connection, though! Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackNZ Posted 10 January , 2009 Share Posted 10 January , 2009 Adrian I fully agree with you - he wasn't in the NZ army - I checked out Studholme's officer list and he doesn't appear anywhere in it - not even as an 'officer on loan'. Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 10 January , 2009 Share Posted 10 January , 2009 I've come to the conclusion he found an 'Onward' badge and rather liked it. He then had a yearning to emigrate to NZ after the war. It certainly sounds as though the NZ bit on his headstone is an error. Is it a private headstone? Or a CWGC one? Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 11 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2009 Thanks very much everyone The headstone is private & he is not commemorated by CWGC Well at least we now know the Wisbech connection Will now obtain the death certificate Will now transfer this thread to the Non Comm Section Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 11 January , 2009 Share Posted 11 January , 2009 Consider it moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 11 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2009 Thanks very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 16 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2009 Mr Cock Up has paid one of his periodic visits Upon visiting the grave yesterday with my Wisbech contact the conversation went as follows Me "so why did you think this was a New Zealand grave" Him "the Kiwi fern on the headstone" Me "thats a palm tree you muppet" Anyway he still falls in the non commemorated category so will crack on with it Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 17 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2010 Time for a update on this one Have got the DC His occupation is listed as hotel proprietor (a dodgy occupation in Wisbech). Cause of death emphysema & bronchitis. Have trawled the NA for his officers file but dont seem to be able to find it. Can anyone help me please Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 17 May , 2010 Share Posted 17 May , 2010 Here you go, Chris. WO 374/45620 Cheers, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 17 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2010 Nigel superb; my thanks Could I ask your secret? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 17 May , 2010 Share Posted 17 May , 2010 You're very welcome, Chris. No secret, I just searched the catalogue using Main, dates 1914-1922, and WO to narrow it down a bit but trying not to cleave too much off just in case, and that produced results of around 80 entries. Then it was just a case of scrolling through the lists. Put simply, I exercised my ignorance to great effect! I've got to say that I didn't find him straight away. Cheers, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 17 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2010 Nigel I now know where I went wrong My thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 17 May , 2010 Share Posted 17 May , 2010 Me "thats a palm tree you muppet" You have made my day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 12 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2010 Time to show everyone the grave photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Marshall Posted 13 June , 2010 Share Posted 13 June , 2010 A handsome memorial Chris. Well done for all your work on this. Cheers, Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 10 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2010 Unfortunately this case will go nowhere as there is no mention of any medical condition on his service file that may have caused his death other than ill health. My thanks to David Underdown for his help with this case Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 11 December , 2010 Share Posted 11 December , 2010 I do wonder if the Irish Guards have any more on him from his service up to warrant rank. As I recall he was commissioned only after being invalided home from the front. For anyone else interested, the images of his record are at http://www.flickr.com/photos/11226331@N05/sets/72157625522620168/. I haven't quite got round to rotating them so taht they are at sensible orientations though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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