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chrisharley9

Bertram St John Main

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chrisharley9

Hi everbody

another possible non commemorated - buried at Mount Pleasant Cemetery Wisbech

His headstone shows NZ Army, Captain & Quartermaster died 4 Jan 1920

I have already found his DC ref & also evidence of 21 years service in the British Army (KOSBs & Irish Guards) being discharged as time expired in 1916.

Now how do I search out the NZ connection - any advice appreciated

Chris

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Adam Llewellyn

Hi Chris,

I'm sure that one of the New Zealand pals will be able to assist. If I were you I'd bump the thread back up just before going to bed.

Regards. Llew.

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chrisharley9

Llew

thanks for that advice

Chris

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alliekiwi

Hi, Chris

I've had a look on the nominal roll CDrom but cannot find him. I tried looking for all those who had Bertram in their names (who knew it would be so popular!), but there are none.

The closest is:

Surname MANGIN

Given Name Bertram

Category Second Reserves

Last NZ Address 185A Cuba St Wellington

Classification E

However, as you can see on the reserves list with quite a number of children. The second division reserves classifications were as follows:

Second Division Roll of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force Reserve

The NZ Government created this list from August to October 1917.

The classification is based on the number of children of a reservist:

Class A - Reservists who have no children or who failed to provide adequate maintenance for their children

Class B - Reservists who have one child

Class C - Reservists who have two children

Class D - Reservists who have three children

Class E - Reservists who have four children

Class F - Reservists who have more than four children

He's not listed on the Auckland War Memorial cenotaph that I can see, nor can I find any files about him listed on the NZ Archives...

I'll keep hunting!

Allie

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aconnolly

He is not listed in the Records of the NZEF by Studholme - contemporary "bible" of such things. May he have joined after end of hostilities??

Andrew

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chrisharley9

Thanks everyone

Having checked his British service records I dont think he ever went to NZ - the only thing that will prove this beyond a doubt will be the DC

Chris

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aconnolly

Chris

No sign of him having served in the NZ forces in the Boer War either I'm afraid.

Andrew

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alliekiwi

I've looked at my genealogy CDs, which include some school listings, etc. Not a sign of him in NZ.

The only thing I can think of is if there is something at Trentham. Although most of the Boer War and First World War files have been transfered to the NZ Archives, what if he was in NZ for some other army reason, outside of those dates? Something to do with compulsory military training when that came in between those two wars, or something?

Allie

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apwright
... being discharged as time expired in 1916.

He wasn't! He took up a commission in the Royal Irish Rifles.

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 25 FEBRUARY, 1916.

The Royal Irish Rifles.

Bertram St. John Main to be temporary Quartermaster, with the honorary rank of Lieutenant Dated 12th February, 1916.

(= the day after his "discharge" from the Irish Guards)

SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 8 MARCH, 1919.

GENERAL LIST.

Infantry. - The undermentioned temp. Qrmrs. & Lts. to be Capts., under Art. 33A, R. Wt. for Pay and Promotion : —

B. St. J. Main. 12th Feb. 1919.

post-16303-1231595338.jpg

"Eligible for SWB 22.5.19", so his death may very well be service-related.

I'm puzzled by "Reply on EF9 from Capt. B.St J. Main 17.10.20", when he apparently died in January 1920... :huh:

No New Zealand connection, though!

Adrian

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ZackNZ

Adrian

I fully agree with you - he wasn't in the NZ army - I checked out Studholme's officer list and he doesn't appear anywhere in it - not even as an 'officer on loan'.

Zack

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alliekiwi

I've come to the conclusion he found an 'Onward' badge and rather liked it. He then had a yearning to emigrate to NZ after the war. ;)

It certainly sounds as though the NZ bit on his headstone is an error. Is it a private headstone? Or a CWGC one?

Allie

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chrisharley9

Thanks very much everyone

The headstone is private & he is not commemorated by CWGC

Well at least we now know the Wisbech connection

Will now obtain the death certificate

Will now transfer this thread to the Non Comm Section

Chris

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eviltaxman

Consider it moved.

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chrisharley9

Thanks very much

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chrisharley9

Mr Cock Up has paid one of his periodic visits

Upon visiting the grave yesterday with my Wisbech contact the conversation went as follows

Me "so why did you think this was a New Zealand grave"

Him "the Kiwi fern on the headstone"

Me "thats a palm tree you muppet"

Anyway he still falls in the non commemorated category so will crack on with it

Chris

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chrisharley9

Time for a update on this one

Have got the DC

His occupation is listed as hotel proprietor (a dodgy occupation in Wisbech). Cause of death emphysema & bronchitis.

Have trawled the NA for his officers file but dont seem to be able to find it. Can anyone help me please

Chris

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chrisharley9

Nigel

superb; my thanks

Could I ask your secret?

Chris

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Dogflud

You're very welcome, Chris.

No secret, I just searched the catalogue using Main, dates 1914-1922, and WO to narrow it down a bit but trying not to cleave too much off just in case, and that produced results of around 80 entries. Then it was just a case of scrolling through the lists. Put simply, I exercised my ignorance to great effect! I've got to say that I didn't find him straight away.

Cheers,

Nigel

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chrisharley9

Nigel

I now know where I went wrong

My thanks

Chris

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Desmond7

Me "thats a palm tree you muppet"

You have made my day :D

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chrisharley9

HPIM1680.jpg

HPIM1682.jpg

Time to show everyone the grave photos

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Dogflud

A handsome memorial Chris.

Well done for all your work on this.

Cheers,

Nigel

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chrisharley9

Unfortunately this case will go nowhere as there is no mention of any medical condition on his service file that may have caused his death other than ill health.

My thanks to David Underdown for his help with this case

Chris

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David_Underdown

I do wonder if the Irish Guards have any more on him from his service up to warrant rank. As I recall he was commissioned only after being invalided home from the front. For anyone else interested, the images of his record are at http://www.flickr.com/photos/11226331@N05/sets/72157625522620168/. I haven't quite got round to rotating them so taht they are at sensible orientations though.

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