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ORCHARD TRENCH 30/08/16


malcolmjameswilson
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I would like to say hello to all Forum members in this, my first posting.

3736 Private James Barber served with the 1/4 Suffolk Regiment. He was killed with this unit on 30/08/16 and is listed on the Thiepval Memorial. He has two entries listed on the CWGC site having served under the alias of Albert Edward Parnell. This appears on the CWGC register as the true family name. A letter addressed to his mother is in the name of Parnell. The MIC is in the name of Barber and gives the BWM and Victory as his only entitlement. No MIC has been traced for Parnell.

He was killed at ‘Orchard Trench’ in ‘Wood Lane’ . I would like to ask if any Forum member can help me with further details on the action in which James Barber/Albert Edward Parnell lost his life. His is listed on the Lound war memorial near Lowestoft in Suffolk under the name Barber. His mother lived in Beccles, Suffolk. Any further information on him would also be of great interest.

Kind regards, Malcolm.

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Hello, the List of Beccles men who served has the following information

James barber is listed as living at 4 delf`s yard served with the 1st suffolks still serving in 1920

Albert J Parnell living at Newgate served with the 1/4 Suffolks and died in 1916

There are 5 men listed with the name of Parnell living in Newgate, Beccles

best regards John

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Welcome to the forum Malcolm,

The following is taken from Westlake's 'Battalions on the Somme' and includes the dates upto James' death which is recorded as KiA on the SDGW database

1/4th Battalion (T.F.). 98th Brigade, 33rd Division:

From Bethune area passed through Becordel-Becourt (14/7) and at night bivouacking between Fricourt and Mametz. In support during attack on Switch Trench (15/7) - ground taken and held immediately in front of Bazentin-le-Petit. Casualties - over 200. In reserve at Shell Alley (16/7). To front line Bazentin-le-Petit (17/7), Shell Valley and in support during attack on High wood (20/7), To Mametz Wood (21/7), Dernancourt (22/7). Casualties for July fighting - 354. Commemorated Minden Day (1/8) by visit to 2nd Suffolk then at Mericourt. To Fricourt Wood (6/8). Working party of 440 men provided to help dig Thistle Alley communication trench (7/8). In support at Bazentin-le-Grand (13/8). To front line High Wood (14/8). Attack on Wood Lane (18/8) - 2 companies occupying objective until relieved (19/8) - all officers having become casualties. Withdrew to Fricourt Wood. Casualties - 196. To camp north-east of Meaulte near Albert Road (20/8), Fricourt Wood (24/8),trenches around Bazentin-le-Grand (25/8). In line Orchard Trench and Wood Lane (29/8). Enemy bombing attacks repulsed (30/8).

Sadly I don't have the relevant map to show Orchard Trench which I believe was the lower end of Wood Lane running NW from Delville Wood,

cheers, Jon

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Malcolm

Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I will send you a map with Orchard Trench and Wood Lane South marked.

Regards

John

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Hello John,

Many thanks for the checking the Beccles Roll. Does it give a service number for James Barber 1/Suffolks? Both 3736 Pte James Barber and 3736 Pte Albert Edward Parnell are listed on the CWGC website. In the entry for Barber it states: See PARNELL, the true family name. Under Parnell it records: (served as BARBER). Son of William and Lucy Parnelll of Newgate St, Beccles. Could the James Barber 1/Suffolks be a different man or is there a mystery to be solved?

Kind regards, Malcolm.

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Hello Jon,

Thank you also for the entry regarding the Suffolks movements relating to August and the event at Orchard Trench which would seem to be an interesting action.

Kind regards, Malcolm.

Hello John,

Many thanks for the kind offer of help with the trench map. Will try to work out how to send PM!

Kind regards, Malcolm.

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Hello John,

Many thanks for the kind offer of supplying a copy of a Trench Map. Will PM with my email details.

Kind regards, Malcolm.

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i am afraid no service numbers are quoted but it is an interesting question {the roll of honour website that lists Lound has James Barber listed as no information available}

best regards John

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Hello John,

Take a look at this link to the Lound War Memorial:

http://www.wakefieldfhs.org.uk/genealogyju...0Memorial.shtml

It records the following:

A Thank-Offering for Victory and in Memory of the men of Lound who fell in the Great War 1914-1919.

James Barber. Albert Edward Parnell served as James Barber Private 3736 of the Suffolk Regt. 4th Batt. He enlisted in Ipswich was was killed in action on the 30th of August 1916 in France and Flanders. He was 29 years old at the time and he is remembered at Pier and Face 1C and 2A. Memorial: Thiepval Memorial. He was the son of William and Lucy Parnell, of Newgate St, Beccles.

I will make a visit to the church shortly to view the names recorded on the memorial.

Kind regards, Malcolm.

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  • 5 years later...

Hi Malcolm,

Pte Christopher Rock, (My Grand Uncle) (4919) 2nd Battalion, Prince of Wales’s Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians). Killed in action, France and Flanders, 01/09/1916.

Born: Clara, Kings County. Enlisted: Mullingar, Co. Westmeath, Residence: Clara, Kings County. Probably awarded the Victory medal or the Allied Victory medal as it was called, the 1914-15 star, and also the British War medal, as all 3 were more likely to have been awarded together. All medals were never recovered or given to the family. There is a reference to Christopher Rock in the Roll of honour of the Leinster Regiment, where the individuals were entitled to the Victory Medal and or the British War Medal granted under Army Orders. This document (which I have a copy of) was signed by F.G. Shinnes, Capt., and was documented in Cork, Ireland. The Bronze Memorial Plaque was given to the family and resides at my uncle’s house, as the eldest of Christopher’s brother’s family John Rock, my Grandfather. Gerry died just a few months ago in Clara. Unfortunately I have never been able to locate a photograph of Christopher Rock.

No service papers were found for Christopher Rock, they were almost certainly destroyed when the record office was bombed in 1940 National Archive ref WO363/R921 and mis sorts 104 (Burnt Document series mainly wartime enlistments & fatalities). I do have a copy of the Battalion War Diary covering the period of his death in action (5 pages). All of this disclosure I found in March 2005 from a researcher I hired.

His qualifying date was 7/12/1915, Theatre of war was France, and he was killed in action on the 1/9/1916.

Extract from the War diary for the month of September 1916 of the Leinster Regiment, Place LONGUEVAL, Diary date 1/9/1916:

“Battalion now occupying left portion of our original line. Endeavours to extend our position to the right by bombing were unsuccessful. Enemy in great strength about WOOD LANE and ORCHARD trench. At 9.50am a new bombing attack made PLUM STREET and was unsuccessful. At 6.30pm an attack by 3rd R.B. recovered ORCHARD STREET. 2nd Lt Rae O’Connor and 2nd Lt A.M. Jameson killed. 2nd Lt W.M. Powell and 2nd Lt A.J. Dobbie wounded”.

This was the only entry in the War Diary for the Leinster Regiment for that date for 1/9/1916.

However on the 31st of August the following was written; LONGUEVAL AREA: 2.30pm. “About 2.30pm enemy attacked front line and broke through left battalion. One company placed at the disposal of O.C. SUSSEX and later one company sent to close support at PONT STREET. At about 9.30pm a bombing attack was made, to recover lost ground, a combined force from Bn and MIDDLESEX but was unsuccessful. About midnight a further attack by a fresh company of the Bn succeeded in regaining the left portion of original front line. Capt. H.G NEWPORT (4th Leinster Regt) wounded O.R. Killed 13, Wounded 22.

Total casualties during this month (AUG)

Officers Killed 4, wounded 13

Chaplain Killed 1

Medical Officer wounded 1

O.R. Killed 55

Wounded 304

Missing 41

Signed; A.O. Murphy Major

Comdg. 2nd Leinster Regt”.

Hope this may be of help.

Regards,

Ronnie

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  • 1 year later...

hi Ronnie, re Christopher Rock. I believe I work with one of your cousins. I've been researching his father's, James Rock, Great War exploits with the 1st Leinsters. Christopher was his brother and the family tale is that they marched past each other at one point - it was the last time James saw his brother alive. As the 1st Leinsters left France in Dec 1915 just as the 2nd Battalion were arriving, I guess it must have been around then. I have also been looking into the action when Christopher was killed. Indeed, we planto be on the spot (or as near as can be guess) on 1st Sep this year - 100 years after his death.

On the family research front, my colleague and friend, Dave Rock, doesn't have any knowledge of his family tree beyond his grand-parents and although Rock is an unusual name there are a few options for James (his Grandfather) and Christopher (his great-uncle) could be in Ireland. Could you help point my research in the correct direction. At the moment,the family tree doesn't have a John Rock as a brother to James or Christopher. Happy to share any military info I have on Christopher, my email address, etc, if you are interested. Cheers

Phil

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  • 2 years later...

We have been looking for any reference to my wife’s fathers brother, who from what we know he was from Cashel in Tipperary and died in Orchard Trench on 31August 1916. His name was George Sackville Wallace and we believe that his rank was that of Sergant of the Lienster Regiment.We have o idea of his service number and the information we have was from aunts- now long gone 

If anyone has any information as to George or his death. My wife is the last of the Wallace line and would love  to find out any or all the details we can

maurice

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  • 6 months later...

Maurice \i doubt that you are still around , but there is an interesting story here

 

His service no was 7675 in Leinsters. He was a Sgt and was KIA 31 Aug 1916. His pension card is on Ancestry

 

His father was also George Sackville Wallace . Presumably this man is your wife's grandfather. Researching then is difficult as the family tend to waver between "Wallace" and "Wallis" on documents. This man had been quite rich, owning 1000 acres of Tipperary, became a bankrupt, and never really recovered his finances.

 

His father was murdered by the IRA in 1921

 

My notes on him are on this link - click.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, corisande said:

Maurice \i doubt that you are still around , but there is an interesting story here

 

His service no was 7675 in Leinsters. He was a Sgt and was KIA 31 Aug 1916. His pension card is on Ancestry

 

His father was also George Sackville Wallace . Presumably this man is your wife's grandfather. Researching then is difficult as the family tend to waver between "Wallace" and "Wallis" on documents. This man had been quite rich, owning 1000 acres of Tipperary, became a bankrupt, and never really recovered his finances.

 

His father was murdered by the IRA in 1921

 

My notes on him are on this link - click.

 

 

 

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing

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Yes, I am working on him at the moment and have just added  a couple of Witness Statements which are quite illuminating

 

What I am trying to discover is how many of the "spies and informers" shot were actual spies - as opposed to low level informers or (for whatever reason) collateral

 

It would be nice if Maurice Haynes , whose grandfather is the shot man, returned to the thread to learn about him. I have PMed him and will see if it gets him here

Edited by corisande
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