Scotland and the Pals Battalions

[delboy]

Colleagues

I have become the proud owner of a silver Liverpool Plas cap badge. I am in the process of reading about this battalion and was wondering were the 'Pals' raised in England only or did Scotland raise any?

Look forward to the response.

Regards Allan

Happy New Year to you all, when it comes.

[bruce]

You lucky.....er.....Scotsman!

Unadulterated envy!!!

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Allan

England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales all produced "locally-raised" battalions, normally formed by prominent businessmen or other public figures, orv by Mayors/Provosts and Corporations of cities and towns, but the specific description "Pals" seems to apply mostly to battalions from England, and particularly the North.

Examples of comparable Scottish battalions are the Glasgow Commercials and Glasgow Tramways battalions. These were virtually the same as the English "Pals" battalions.

It is possible that, outside the North of England, these battalions were more specifically associated with particular industries, which gave their names, whereas the English battalions were more closely geographically based, i.e. to parts of a town, rather than confined to particular trades or industries.

Ron

[delboy]

Hello Allan

England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales all produced "locally-raised" battalions, normally formed by prominent businessmen or other public figures, orv by Mayors/Provosts and Corporations of cities and towns, but the specific description "Pals" seems to apply mostly to battalions from England, and particularly the North.

Examples of comparable Scottish battalions are the Glasgow Commercials and Glasgow Tramways battalions. These were virtually the same as the English "Pals" battalions.

It is possible that, outside the North of England, these battalions were more specifically associated with particular industries, which gave their names, whereas the English battalions were more closely geographically based, i.e. to parts of a town, rather than confined to particular trades or industries.

Ron

Ron

Thanks for the reply, it has helped clear this issue up for me.

Regards Allan

[truthergw]

Ron has more or less covered it but I would add that Scottish Regiments were territorial anyway. A man joining an infantry regiment would generally plump for his local one. Cameron Highlanders, Argylls, Black Watch through to HLI and down to the Borders etc. all had their own particular recruiting areas. It would be unusual before the war to find a Scotsman joining a regiment from another part of the country. That said, the Black Watch seem to have recruited successfully in Ireland. As far as Pals Battalions are concerned, the Battle of Loos showed the downside of that type of recruiting with very heavy losses concentrated in localised areas of Scotland. The Battle of Arras also had a disproportionate number of Scots casualties but does not seem to have had the same effect. I wonder if by this time, ( 1917) Scots battalions in fact had more English and Welsh soldiers serving in them and all battalions were losing their regional emphasis.

[Capt_Starlight]

Seemed to have missed the obvious - 16Bn Royal Scots ("McCrae's Battalion") raised from Scotland's footballers and supporters. The subject of the superb McCrae's Battalion: the Story of the 16th Royal Scots. By Jack Alexander (of this forum).

[Malcolm]

The Battle of Arras also had a disproportionate number of Scots casualties but does not seem to have had the same effect. I wonder if by this time, ( 1917) Scots battalions in fact had more English and Welsh soldiers serving in them and all battalions were losing their regional emphasis.

Tom,

This was more due to the fact there were 44 Scottish Battalions out of 120 Battalions who attacked on 9th April 1917.

Aye

Malcolm

[4thGordons]

I tried to have a bit of a look at the impact of this local recruitment for one Battalion in one limited engagement. Having compiled a list of the casualties in the 1/4th Gordons at the Second Battle of Bellewaarde (Sept 1915) I then plotted the street addresses of next of kin (as listed by CWGC so incomplete) on a city map of Aberdeen.... YOU CAN SEE THE RESULTS (and concentration) HERE.

I suspect this did alter as the war went on. A sense of the changing nature of the Battalions can be had by looking through chronological casualty lists and examining the place of enlistment. Although I have not yet attempted a formal analysis (Carolyn M May have on her 1/5th Gordons site), if you look down SDGW chronologically ordered in 1915/16 the place of enlistment of casualties is very localised, but post 1916 (post conscription?) it becomes much more varied. Whether this variation (which would indicate a less regional nature) is strictly speaking statistically significant I don't know...its on the to-do list!

Chris

[Rodge Dowson]

The even more obvious perhaps is the sister battalion to the 16th (2nd City of Edinburgh) Battalion, Royal Scots which was the 15th R/Scots it was part raised by Manchester recruitment of men mainly from the Industrial towns of the north west of England with between 400 - 500 Manchester enlisted men going to Edinburgh in 1914. The battalion was the 1st City of Edinburgh, and was also known as 'Cranston's Own Battalion','The Provost's Battalion' or is more widely referred to now as the 'Manchester Scottish'.

This battalion was also decimated together with the 16th R/S on the first day of the Somme offensive (the 16th R/Scots are generally known as either 'McCrae's Battalion' or the 'Hearts' Battalion). Confusing isn't it!

There is a publication called 'Manchester Scottish 1914- 1918', not to mention the superb and highly detailed history of the 16th R/S ' McCrae's Battalion' by the Edinburgh author and historian Jack Alexander.

Rodge

[geraint]

Same situation in Wales. The four county regiments - RWF, SWB, The Welsh and The Monmouth Reg had traditional geographic recruiting areas. Welsh Guards came later. With RWF, two service battalions were officialy named Pals battalions, (9th + 13th), though the others were considered as such by the Wales Army Council responsible for the Welsh army recruitment drive.

Interesting point with the Territorials and the mounted Yeomen/Hussars. Being from the same area, co-workers, and attending their Terrier duties - they would have been far more 'pals' than the official Pals battalions. There's been at least one thread on this.

Here, in 1914/5 recruiting for the ASC caused a lot of contention amongst the line regiments, and a fair bit of illfeeling. Seeing the names of men who enlisted in the local ASC Company from this town (brothers, neighbours) they would also have possessed a familiarity amongst the men akin to a Pals unit.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Allan,

There were 5 pals battalions in Scotland, sponsored by 2 Regiments:

15th Bn Royal Scots - Edinburgh

16th Bn Royal Scots - Edinburgh

15th Bn HLI - Glasgow

16th Bn HLI - Glasgow

17th Bn HLI - Glasgow

Many more Scots, as a ratio within the UK, joined the army and Territorials of their own volition, than being convinced by serving with their pals at work.

Other Lowland Regiments such as the KOSB and RSF did not have the population density to raise Pals battalions on top of the battalions that they were already supporting well. Incidentally, The Cameronians almost hived of the 3 HLI battalions (being referred to by their Pals names and unclaimed by any Regiment for a while), before the HLI eventually put their claim to them.

I cannot explain all circumstances, but what I can say is that the Pals concept fell on its face in Dundee for socio-economic and socio-cultural reasons which I won't go into just now. But I will say that many more Scots would go into the regular Army or the Rifle Volunteers as a matter of course, plus there was less of a social stigma. Some real lower class people were filthy poor and would see the Army as a way out, and a way to be somebody [see the excellent book Morale by John Baynes - this breaks down the minutiae of absolutely everything about a regular Regiment and its makeup: 2nd Scottish Rifles].

Also, prior to The War, in Dundee, the Territorial Force had more of an impact on the working man's life (probably other places too). Many of his social superiors, who would probably be his employer/landowner would hold Territorial Force Commissions and would often extend paternalism down to their employees. It would be seen to be the thing to do to support your employer, plus many actually enjoyed the open air life, the fitness, the camaraderie, and the sport - without having to sign on for 7 years (that said, there were a fair few ex-regulars in the TF). As I've said, it was seen as a good pastime and even a summer holiday for some, especially those whose working conditions were grim. So the TF was quite often looked favourably upon and well supported - have a look at the recruiting figures* for the TF at the beginning of the war (posted below), a disproportionate amount are Scots. Therefore, many were more likely to go into the Black Watch (if not already as a regular) as one of the successful local Territorial Battalions of The Black Watch: 4th (City of Dundee), 5th (Angus and Dundee) Battalions. Additionally, remove from the manpower-pot those that went into the RND (Royal Naval Division - Winston Churchill was a Liberal M.P. in Dundee at the time), which was quite significant in Dundee, and it can be seen that there was not a lot of jam left to spread on the bread (with regards to manpower for a Pals battalion).

There is a certain amount of Regimental identity that goes with an area too. This would have a certain pull on the men within the area - even from a young age (Eric Linklater being a prime example), and this would get men in the Army before the Pals concept had grown legs. It is possibly more of a difficult concept for many to see, judging things by their own modern standards, or maybe their own regiment does not have the same attraction. I also think this affectionate bond between the citizens and the local Regiment is best articulated by Bernard Fergusson in his book The Black Watch and The King's Enemies - page 121. He is talking about the loss of the 1st Bn The Black Watch at Saint-Valéry:

To us in the Regiment, each of these figures means a distinct character, a separate group of friends of honoured names. Any chronicler must quail at the prospect of trying to invest, for the reader, numbered battalions with their true personalities. But he must try, hoping that in his own affection for them and his pride in their achievements may break through the cold print. It is not possible for the stranger to remain three days in the shires of Perth or Angus, or the Kingdom of Fife, without becoming aware that they are in The Black Watch country, or that The Black Watch is their regiment. The Regiment and the countryside are one, and there at least you will find no vagueness about which battalion is which.

With a high percentage of males going into the army, it would also mean that a high percentage would have a brother, father, cousin, and so forth, that have served in The Black Watch so that in the Regimental area there is a proponderance of familial links to the Regiment. I have no doubt that other regiments had this bond too, as the Argylls and Gordons were both equally adept at bringing local recruits into their own (of the two, the Argylls having the upper hand with its population density). The Seaforths and Camerons were not so lucky. The Camerons recruiting area was extended to the whole of Scotland, to raise its second Battalion, so there was not much in the way of manpower to be recruited from. Mind you, prior to the war, a fair few in the Camerons recruiting area still harboured some sentiment for the white cockade - for a number of reasons. The Seaforths found themselves in quite a similar predicament - though slightly better off. There was no way that these two Regiments were going to have the population density to recruit extra battalions from, or the workforce from large factories, mills, engineering works, and local government/corporations.

Hope this may help to explain the lack of Pals battalions in Scotland. Graham Stewart, on the forum, I believe may have a list of sub-units formed from places of work, some of which will possibly be Scottish.

Aye

Tom McC

*Taken from: Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire during the Great War 1914-1920 (published 1922)

[Graham Stewart]

Pals units aside recruitment is a very fascinating subject, especially once you get down to the bare bones of how and where units recruited. Many years ago I was looking through the County Durham Territorial Force Association Minute Books and in the 1915 edition was a very interesting piece which was a request from a Highland TFA(Aberdeen I think!!!), asking Durham TFA if it could possibly begin 'recruiting in Durham'. It's possible that recruiting for some Scottish TF units and especially those based in the Highlands were already hitting manpower problems due to the sparse population of that region compared to that of the Lowlands. Durham TFA replied that in no way could it allow a Highland TFA to begin recruiting from Durham, as recruiting generally was becoming a problem for the TF throughout the UK.

For a breakdown of how regiments were recruited and where from, a really good source(if available) is the regimental "Digest of Service", which sometimes give the area from where the recruits come from. One of the biggest surprises for me was to find that the Northumberland Fusiliers at the turn of the century actually had as many men recruited from the Home Counties as they did from Northumberland and Durham.

However this wasn't uncommon as you dig deeper into a regiments history and I have at home an 1895 Recruiters Pamphlet for the Leicestershire area, which among it's list of regiments to be recruited for, are some Scottish units.

As for Scottish Pals units there were also those who were raised for the Artillery and Engineers, but my list is at home and I won't be back until the back-end of February, so can't list them here.

[eltoro1960]

Echoing what previous posts have said, the TF though clearly not Pals battalios,n recruited well in their local areas, for example the 8th Royal Scots covered East Lothian, Midlothian and Peebleshire. In 1914 when it went overseas it had to be supplemented by a company from the 6th Royal Scots (Edinburgh) and a company from the 8th Highland Light Infantry (Lanarkshire).

I have compiled a roll of honour for the 8th on my website, Newbattle at War, which you can view here, you will have sign in or join , as it is in the members section (painless process) You can see the localised nature of the casualties until late 1916 ,thereafter men from all over Scotland and England are drafted in, mainly from mining areas but some from London as well.

[truthergw]

Tom,

This was more due to the fact there were 44 Scottish Battalions out of 120 Battalions who attacked on 9th April 1917.

Aye

Malcolm

Hi Malcolm, I managed to miss your reply. Too much xmas pud. I was referring to the way that Loos caused terrible losses in Dundee and in other parts of Scotland while I have not seen reports of the same from Arras although there were more Scots involved in that battle than one might expect.

[Malcolm]

Hi Tom R,

I understand what you're getting at now. Dundee was badly hit by Loos casualties.

Tom McC,

That's a very good post and explanation.

Aye

Malcolm

[Tom A McCluskey]

Malcolm,

Thank you.

Aye

Tom McC

[Glesga Highlander]

In the twenty years since I made my first visit to the Somme I have practically read every newspaper there is to consult in the Mitchell Library and I have yet to find one reference to any Glasgow Battalion as the "Glasgow Pals'. I have read all three Battalion histories of the 15th , 16th and 17th Highland Light Infantry and there is no reference to the 'Glasgow Pals' in any of them...likewise the seven bounded volumes of 'The Outpost' the regimental magazine of the 17th Battalion makes no mention of the 'Glasgow Pals' nor does the the HLI Chronicles or War Diaries.

The only reference to the three Service Battalions raised in Glasgow is their initial formation number when they were recruited i.e. the 1st (Glasgow) for the 15th , the 2nd (Glasgow) for the 16th and the 3rd (Glasgow) for the 17th. Collectively they would have been known as the 'Glesga Keelies' the traditional nickname for all Highland Light Infantry soldiers dating back to the Peninsular Wars...a name still used to describe all Glaswegians up until this day.

Individual Territorial Battalions would retain their own nicknames during the Great War with the three Service Battalions being given nicknames relevant to their original Service Battalion numbers i.e. the 15th the 'Boozy First', the 16th the 'Holy Second' and the 17th initially known as the 'Saintly Third' but later changed to the 'Featherbeds'.

My first recollection of the name the 'Glasgow Pals' was in the foreward of the programme written by Professor Hew Strachan for the stage play 'The Big Picnic' which is totally wrong...mind you that is not surprising seeing as the play itself was based on the history of the 16th Battalion of the HLI and had them at the Battle of Mons and Loos, playing football in No Man's Land on Chritmas Day 1914 and rather ironically going over the top wearing kilts on the 1st of July 1916. Not bad for a battalion who never landed in France until the 22nd/23rd November 1915 and wore standard khaki trousers like the rest of the battalions of the 32nd Division on that fateful day the 1st of July 1916...there only being two kilted battalions of the HLI in the Great War that being the 6th and 9th Battalions. Ach well there is a lot to be said for artictic licence...Braveheart anyone.

Sadly the name 'Glasgow Pals' is beginning to creep into all sorts of newly published books, TV programmes and other media outlets re the First World War even in a tourist guide to the Southern Necropolis here in Glasgow. All we can do to correct this is to write to the people who write and publish these misnomers before it becomes part of the myths and legend of the Great War such as ' the Scots were always in the front line , the English officers always led from the rear , bungling British Generals and all sorts of other guff we have became used to over the last 90 odd years'.

They were the' Glesga Keelies' and were never ever known as the 'Glasgow Pals' and to call them so is to besmirch their memory.

[Guest]

Walter

Milk Truk