Nachtjager Posted 16 December , 2008 Share Posted 16 December , 2008 Hi, I'm new to this forum and recently acquired a number of items from a very advanced WWI collector's estate. I need help identifying several items and would welcome any input, as German stuff is more of my specialty and he had a lot of British pieces. This jacket is very unusual I think and I welcome all input. Although it doesn't show in the photos, the torso of this jacket has chainmail sewn inside the lining, from the tops of the breast pockets all the way down the front, all down each side, and covering the back except for the jacket's tails. It shows honest wear and period repairs under the sleeves. It weighs a full 10.5 pounds on my bathroom scale, so this thing is a bear! There's a tailor's tag in the interior pocket which indicates "Gieves Ltd." and it has the date "I. 4. 16" and the name "S.E. Ritchie" (could be wrong about the "E". Will post a few photos, anybody know if this was an experimental piece, a private purchase piece, or ???? Was this a Royal Flying Corps jacket or regular army? He had a lot of RFC stuff and I also got a nice maternity tunic, visor cap, and jodphurs set from the same closet. Thanks and take care. Will post more ignorant questions soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachtjager Posted 16 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 16 December , 2008 Another pic. The buttons on the chainmail tunic. The hole in front pocket showing metal below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 16 December , 2008 Share Posted 16 December , 2008 Hello Nachtjager Almost certainly private purchase for an officer, in either the Royal Naval Air Service or one of the units of the Royal Naval Division. RNAS is more probable, I'd say, bearing in mind that the chain mail lining does not cover the jacket tails, which an airman would be sitting on. The two rings on each sleeve suggest a lieutenant RN but in that case iI think there should have been a "curl" in the braid of the upper stripe. I believe that Gieves (now Gieves and Hawkes) were primarily naval outfitters, but not exclusively so. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 16 December , 2008 Share Posted 16 December , 2008 This is not RNAS, it more than likely RAF (Royal Air Force) c.1918 as it has no shoulder straps. Strange having General Service buttons though, instead of RAF buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 Pictures taken at the IWM. RAF uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 Possibly the buttons aren`t original? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 17 2008, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Possibly the buttons aren`t original? Don't forget that many officers transfered in to theRFC/RAF, and converted the uniforms, and even wore the badges of their previous units. This would be a likely explaination for the General Service Buttons. especially if he was previously a Staff Officer. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 I`m assuming the cuff rings are strictly RAF, so, if he transferred in, he must have had the tunic converted from its previous rank badges and it seems unlikely he`d do that without specifying RAF buttons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 It seems slightly odd, aircrew were usually loathe to take on additional weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 Seems odd because the tunic doesn't look as if it ever had shoulder straps therefore likely to be RAF rather than a conversion. This means 1918-1919 in date. It did occur to me that if it was a RAF tunic worn by an ex RAF officer in Ireland as a member of the Auxiliaries or in some other colonial post where the RAF did intelligence or aerial policing it might be protection against threats on the ground rather than protection against 'flak' in the air. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 From Wiki:- "During World War I, mail was evaluated as a material for bullet proof vests, but results were unsatisfactory as the rings would fragment and further aggravate the damage." It is curious that a man would consider having chainmail permanently in his jacket. It would appear more likely that he`d don a mail vest as required. Is there a photo of the actual chainmail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 17 2008, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> From Wiki:- "During World War I, mail was evaluated as a material for bullet proof vests, but results were unsatisfactory as the rings would fragment and further aggravate the damage." And without considerable padding behind it will be driven into the body by any strong blow (as any medieval ful no) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 Might he have been something to do with Bomb supply or arming? Or even bomb disposal? I don't think they wore this type of jacket in the air anyway. This would be good protection from flying wood splinters if a bomb went off while being loaded on an aircraft. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachtjager Posted 17 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 17 December , 2008 Thanks to all for the info. The posts w/photos from Wardog are interesting indeed. The RAF tunic pictured is very similar indeed. I've had some interesting messages on this as well, so here's some more info after I've looked it over again last night. Unlike the RAF tunic pictured, this one has the fourth lower button below the belt if that means anything. It definitely never had shoulder boards. The buttons look to be original and show no signs of having been changed. There are places over the stripes on the sleeve where insignia was plainly removed, certainly looks to have been the same RAF insignia as shown on the photos linked by Wardog. There is also a small hole over the left breast and the outline of insignia there having been removed is pretty obvious - does look like it had wings on it. The markings on the tailor's tag seriously look like "I. 4. 16" which I thought was a date - could this mean something else? Is there any way to find out who R.E. Ritchie was? And is this a "Captain" rank tunic? Can't take photos of the chain inside the jacket, quite simply, because it's sewn inside the tunic! You can feel it easily, but the only place you can see it is through the one small hole shown in the pocket. It actually looks like very small steel octagonal shaped pieces all linked very tightly together. Will try to post a couple of more photos. Thanks to all again, this is a great website! Will post some more crazy stuff from this estate later tody, thanks for all the patience everyone, I very much appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachtjager Posted 17 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 17 December , 2008 The tailor's tag inside the breast pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 Might make a stab proof jacket rather than a bullet proof one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 Can we get a close up of the mail links please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 17 December , 2008 Share Posted 17 December , 2008 http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks2.htm -Rank Info. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachtjager Posted 18 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2008 Hi, me again, here's the best pic I can get of the metal inside the jacket; silver-looking tightly linked plates that are somewhat octagonal shaped. Also tried to get photos of the breast area, there is an outline here where wings were and I think their removal resulted in this particular hole. Thanks again to all. Will try to post a couple of links (no pun intended) to youtube videos I made last night to try and demonstrate the metal inside this jacket. Thanks again and God bless. Does anyone know how to find out the story on it's owner, "S.E. Ritchie"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachtjager Posted 18 December , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2008 Here's the links to video with super exciting sound effects (Ha!) Please turn your speakers up, my camera's not all that good. Thanks! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj7xU4L6J3A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmnlopeY_dU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 18 December , 2008 Share Posted 18 December , 2008 Impressive sound effects! What extra weight to carry around? I had never heard of chain mail in connection with WW1 until looking at this thread, but yesterday I read the first chapter of 'Famous 1914-1918' * (by Van Emden/Piuk) where a fellow-officer of AA Milne was embarrassed by an 'undergarment of chain mail', sent by his mother. Sadly the item's worth was never proved, as the officer was blown to pieces soon afterwards 'by a crump'. It is strange how often things crop up in pairs, like this. * A welcome birthday present. Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 18 December , 2008 Share Posted 18 December , 2008 Here is a candidate for the owner of the chain mail tunic: Casualty Details Name: RITCHIE, STANLEY EDWARD Initials: S E Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Captain Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Unit Text: H.M.S. "Argus." Age: 23 Date of Death: 16/04/1919 Additional information: Son of Edward William Hammond Ritchie and Lucy Egerton Ritchie, of Boxhurst, Dorking. Born in London. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: 18. 9514. Cemetery: DORKING CEMETERY This seems to match the profile suggested in earlier posts. Can anyone elaborate on HMS Argus? Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 18 December , 2008 Share Posted 18 December , 2008 Wiki:- Argus was laid down in 1914 by William Beardmore and Company in Glasgow as the Italian ocean liner Conte Rosso. However, before she was launched, she was purchased by the Royal Navy for conversion into an aircraft carrier. She was built from the start with an unobstructed flight deck (the "flush deck") upon which conventional aircraft could take off and land. Prior to that, the aircraft carrier HMS Furious had been built with separate decks fore and aft of the main superstructure. Argus was launched 2 December 1917 and was commissioned 6 September 1918, just before the end of the First World War. Due to her small size (approx 14,000 tonnes) and relatively slow speed, she was of limited use as a combat vessel. Instead, she was used primarily to develop the techniques of aircraft carrier combat and train aviators in the operation of aircraft at sea. At the end of the 1920s, having been superseded by larger and more modern vessels, she was removed from the front line force and used as a training carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 18 December , 2008 Share Posted 18 December , 2008 Phil I knew someone would have/find the answer. Thanks for that. Another piece of the jigsaw? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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