"CONCENTRATION CAMP _ DEOLALI"

[Pjhp]

I was born in Deolali in June 1945, we arrived in England in Nov 1945. My father was a British soldier (K.O.R.R) serving in Sri Lanka where he met and married my mother in 1944. I think I must have been born in a Military Hospital in Deolali which could be now known as The Contonement Camp. How do I go about finding out any information on the above such as why were we there at that time and exactly where I was born? I obtained his Army records a few years ago and was amazed to learn of how many countries he had served and how long a service he had, he was also awarded medals which have been mislaid. I am planning to go back to Deolali and would be grateful for any help.

Regards Dorothy

My father was posted to Homeward Bound Troping Depot DEOLALI as Chaplain on 28/6/46 so may have baptised you. If your father had been overseas for 4 years he would have been repatriated under PYTHON a code word to describe such service personnel. They received "express" procedures on arrival in UK. Hope this is helpful.

Best wishes

Philip

[Pjhp]

Reading my father's service Record, I find some abbreviations I do not recognise : - HQ165 LOC Sub Area, 108 LOC Area, RES MIR (Python). All relate to service in India. Can anyone help?

Also, can anyone tell my to which unit 9 Bn CCS was attached? Many thanks

Philip

[healdav]

Until the Nazis took it over and forever tainted it, the term "Concentration camp" meant nothing more nor less than a place where lots of people were concentrated.

Thus, before and during WW1 it could and did mean a POW camp, internment camp, prison, etc. So calling Deolali a concentration camp is quite right; a lot of people were concentrated there.

The term has a very long history, going back to Charlemagne and was used all over the world until the late 1930s. I have a village near me whose name means concentration area. It was where Charlemagne held a lot of people who were being ethnically cleansed from Northern Germany and were waiting to be sent to new places (some in Britain).

[kjharris]

Hi there,

I think I can help out with POWs. This is from the notes of AWM41 942, Sister Alma L. Bennett who was Matron of 34 Welsh General Hospital in Deolali in 1917, ‘containing 3000 beds – 4 hrs train journey from Bombay'. ...

p11. Our cases were all from Mesopotamia – some direct – others individually coming from various Bombay Hospitals… We also had 200 Turkish Prisoners of War, almost all Surgical cases, some with shocking wounds – septic.

And Gertrude Davis said:

When we became a P. of W. hospital our number of beds was increased to 700, 200 for British and 500 for prisoners as later we had the German prisoners from East Africa also an occasional one from Mespot.

cheers

Kirsty

[centurion]

Until the Nazis took it over and forever tainted it, the term "Concentration camp" meant nothing more nor less than a place where lots of people were concentrated.

Thus, before and during WW1 it could and did mean a POW camp, internment camp, prison, etc. So calling Deolali a concentration camp is quite right; a lot of people were concentrated there.

The term has a very long history, going back to Charlemagne and was used all over the world until the late 1930s. I have a village near me whose name means concentration area. It was where Charlemagne held a lot of people who were being ethnically cleansed from Northern Germany and were waiting to be sent to new places (some in Britain).

There are places in Britain called Herewake which were where the armed men who formed a Saxon army would concentrate when a call to mobilise was sent out.. The 'Here' is part of the same root as the German Herren and the place name could be translated into modern English as "The place where the soldiers concentrate"

[jwfwarsaw]

According to the newly-launched website of the International Committee of the Red Cross, dedicated to the International Prisoners of War Agency, there were at least six camps in today's India: Ahmednagar, Belgaum, Bellary, Katapahar, Kolkata and Sumerpur, all of them housing Ottoman POWs as well as German and Austrian internees.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/Camps

Note that the reports only relate to camps that were actually visited by the Red Cross.

Best regards,

Jonathan

[MaureenE]

As mentioned in post 22, the FIBIS Fibiwiki has a page called "POW Camps in India"

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/POW_Camps_in_India

Included are links to a book in English about the camps visited by the Red Cross, in contrast to the link posted by jwfwarsaw above, (http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/Camps) where the information about the camps in India links to a book in French.

Cheers

Maureen

[Guest Haggler]

I have been told by my family that my great grandfather Lt Col Frederick Church was camp commander of an internment camp for militant sikhs called Deoli. I wonder if this is the place you are refering to ?

It is now an Indian army training college. My grandfather Major John Church was born in Meerut in 1910 and his sister in 1906. My grandfather according to family was in charge of the first train from the new Pakistan to arrive in India without being stopped and passengers murdered at time of partition. Deoli was used to house all kinds of percieved enemies of the Raj over the years. Generations of the Church and Hughes families were officers in the British Indian army from the early 1800s but I do not have any service numbers for them. The familysearch.org website had far more details on them than ancestry.com or find my past btw. If you have hit a brick wall with family history details do please try it. Medal lists are often useless as I know my grandad had burma star africa star etc but shows up nowhere. I have also found out that during ww2 officers were often farmed out. My grandad was an acting colonel in west african frontier force for a while despite being a signals officer. Thanks for letting me join as the lists published may help me further.

[Guest]

Murray's Handbook for India, Pakistan, Burma and Ceylon (a travel guide in th shape of a Gazetteer of India) has :

"Deolali station: During both world wars this served as a transit camp for troops arriving from or proceeding to Europe. It is also a hill-resort much patronised by Parsis and others from Bombay."

"Deoli, on the Banas river, the former Cantonment of the Deoli Regiment and the Mina Corps, is situated 57 miles SE of Nasirabad. It was used at one time as an internment camp for terrorist detenus and during the Second World War as Prisoner of War Camp. Raj Mahal lies a few miles to the N where the Banas river enters the hills. The scenery is very striking."

My edition is the seventeenth edition (1955) but I think the handbook first started in the 1890s (3rd edition is 1898) so an earlier edition - then called " A Handbook for travellers in India, Burma and Ceylon" - might expand on this.

MG

Edit: Hobson-Jobson has no entry for doolally/doollaly tap (or variant spellings). If was first published in the 1890s as a dictionary of anglo-indian words, so might at least provide a stop date for the earliest use of the expression. i.e. not before 1898.

And another very useful link to the Imperial Gazetteer

click

[seaforths]

If anyone has any source definitely printed or created before 1925 that mentions "doolally" or "doolally tap", then the Oxford English dictionary will be pleased to know, as its earliest citation dates to 1925, "in: E. Fraser & J. Gibbons Soldier & Sailor Words 75 Deolali tap (otherwise doolally tap), mad, off one's head. Old Army."(Frank Richards' book was published in 1936).

Not quite what you were looking for in terms of an early reference. This is from Brewer's Millenium Edn. I thought it might be of interest because of the reference to the 'tap' part of the expression. It made me wonder if they were already suffering from the effects of the fever before arriving at Deolali and being repatriated as time expired but possibly many suffering the effects of malaria. Perhaps later, it's reputation was gained around it's former use as an evacuation camp and the connotations of being mad substituted for those suffering from malaria...just conjecture on my part.

Edit: typo

[seaJane]

I wouldn't be at all surprised - delirium can lead to some fairly lunatic feelings and behaviour.

(I remember having pneumonia and a temperature of 105*F, age 7 or so - mum had to change the curtains in my room, as I was terrified of the leaf-shadows in their pattern, which were crawling off the curtains and on to my bed).

[seaforths]

I had a similar thing with my daughter at 8 or 9 years old. She had a temperature of 105. Having removed the quilt and replaced it with a plain sheet, she kept sweeping her hands across the top of it and shaking it. When I ased what she was doing? She told me she was trying to get the soil off the bed!

I would imagine having a number of men coming and going, hallucinating and raving must have left quite an impression over a period of time. The nearest thing language wise I could find is the word twp (tup) which is Welsh and apparently originated from down the mines and the meaning being stupid or a bit mad.

[tom bowler]

image.jpg

Not quite what you were looking for in terms of an early reference. This is from Brewer's Millenium Edn. I thought it might be of interest because of the reference to the 'tap' part of the expression. It made me wonder if they were already suffering from the effects of the fever before arriving at Deolali and being repatriated as time expired but possibly many suffering the effects of malaria. Perhaps later, it's reputation was gained around it's former use as an evacuation camp and the connotations of being mad substituted for those suffering from malaria...just conjecture on my part.

Edit: typo

My Dad also passed through Deolali transit camp in 1945/1946. I might still have his movement order somewhere. Further to the above post, he reckoned that 'doolali tap' was the daily display of lists of men going back to 'dear old Blighty'. And the shouts,howls and swearing, when the men realised they had to go through the wait again the next morning with the boredom and high temperatures. My father hated India as he couldn't stand the heat - he, like myself, used to be redheads. Which as everyone knows, burn very easily in the sun.

[Zaheer Ameer]

On 10/30/2012 at 00:18, dorothy hopkins said:

I was born in Deolali in June 1945, we arrived in England in Nov 1945. My father was a British soldier (K.O.R.R) serving in Sri Lanka where he met and married my mother in 1944. I think I must have been born in a Military Hospital in Deolali which could be now known as The Contonement Camp. How do I go about finding out any information on the above such as why were we there at that time and exactly where I was born? I obtained his Army records a few years ago and was amazed to learn of how many countries he had served and how long a service he had, he was also awarded medals which have been mislaid. I am planning to go back to Deolali and would be grateful for any help.

Regards Dorothy

Hi Dorothy, I am from Deolali - let me know if I can be of any help to you. Thanks

[Zaheer Ameer]

On 1/23/2014 at 13:37, kjharris said:

Hi there,

I think I can help out with POWs. This is from the notes of AWM41 942, Sister Alma L. Bennett who was Matron of 34 Welsh General Hospital in Deolali in 1917, ‘containing 3000 beds – 4 hrs train journey from Bombay'. ...

p11. Our cases were all from Mesopotamia – some direct – others individually coming from various Bombay Hospitals… We also had 200 Turkish Prisoners of War, almost all Surgical cases, some with shocking wounds – septic.

And Gertrude Davis said:

When we became a P. of W. hospital our number of beds was increased to 700, 200 for British and 500 for prisoners as later we had the German prisoners from East Africa also an occasional one from Mespot.

cheers

Kirsty

Hi Kirsty, very true. The above information is 100% correct. I am from the town Deolali - I was and brought up in Deolali and I have seen all  the signs and figures left behind by British Army, POW, etc  for example - we still have the graves of the British soldiers, POW (Turkish Prisoners of War)-  for your reference and kind perusal I have attached a few of the images of grave of POW (Turkish Prisoners of War). Please let me know your thoughts on them. 

[MaureenE]

Thanks for posting Zaheer Ameer

 

Which cemetery are these graves in?

 

I thought that as they were POWs, perhaps they would be come under the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, but there is no mention of them in what is called the Deolali Government Cemetery, but perhaps this is for Christians only.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/5001697/DEOLALI GOVERNMENT CEMETERY

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Zaheer Ameer]

Hi Maureen,

 

Thanks for writing!

 

You are right - it is nowhere mentioned on Deolali Government Cemetery, because these men were Turkish POW (Muslims). Hence, they are buried in the Muslim Cemetery in Deolali. These graves are in a Muslims Cemetery in Deolali and there is about 7 Kms distance between Christians Cemetery to Muslims Cemetery. 

 

The URL/Link you mentioned speaks about Deolali Government Cemetery, which was meant for Christians. Long time ago, to kill time I was riding across the town (Deolali) on the way home, out of curiosity I went inside the Christians Cemetery to check. The entrance is made out of rock blocks, very classic - super fine vintage and scary of course, for there was no one around and it is covered with dense green climbing creepers. On the first few steps on the right hand side there is a grave, which the oldest - year 1802 I didn't read the name on the headstone but yes it shook me off. I am trying to visit the cemetery this weekend, hopefully you will be able to see what I meant in my above comments. There is a statue made of marble stone with a baby in right hand and a book she is holding on the left. The cemetery was too dense for me to walk inside without any gear so I came out with these images in my head. Let’s see I will take pictures on my next visit soon. 

 

Cheers!!!

Edited 2 December , 2016 by Zaheer Ameer

[MaureenE]

Thanks for your information Zaheer Ameer.

 

If you are able to take any photographs in the Christian Cemetery in Deolali,  would you be willing to send copies to the FIBIS website, to the Website manager whose email address is in this link http://www.fibis.org/contact/  for inclusion in the FIBIS database?  FIBIS, Families in British India Society, is a registered charity in the UK.

 

Perhaps you may be interested in the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Deolali http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Deolali

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Zaheer Ameer]

You are welcome. 

 

I will be sending you the latest pictures of the Christian Cemetery in a couple of days. Feel free to share it on http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Deolali.

 

Many thanks! 

Zaheer

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 02/10/2015 at 17:43, seaforths said:

The nearest thing language wise I could find is the word twp (tup) which is Welsh and apparently originated from down the mines and the meaning being stupid or a bit mad.

 

I think the Welsh 'Twp' is actually derived from the English 'Tup' , meaning stupid.

[dink_and_pip]

Twp is stupid 

Twpsyn is dunce 

My old landlady used the phrase "doolally tap" regularly.  She was in her later years but still working as a nurse 1982 Pontypridd. 

Andy 

[BullerTurner]

Those of us familiar with the expression "double tap" will not be surprised to hear that the expression doolally tap was explained to me differently.  A tap can mean a single round, hence double tap meaning two, fired.   I was led when young to believe that soldiers sat in Deolali, a hot equatorial station, might deliver a "dolally tap" to end their misery?

 

Any fans of "It ain't half hot Mum" might remember or be interested to learn that Deolali provided the location/setting for the first four series!

[Jatin]

Hi, Zaheer Ameer and others. I am also from Deolali and was trying to find out more about this beautiful place. @Zaheer Ameer do you still live Deolali? Is the Turkish graves inside the military area? 

I am a PhD scholar at dept of theoretical physics, TIFR Mumbai, my father is retired teacher from K.V and lives in devlali.

[TullochArd]

On 02/12/2016 at 12:04, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

I think the Welsh 'Twp' is actually derived from the English 'Tup' , meaning stupid.

or "twerp noun [ C ] old-fashioned informal (also twirp)" ........ a silly or annoying person?

[Zaheer Ameer]

On 31/08/2022 at 23:30, Jatin said:

Hi, Zaheer Ameer and others. I am also from Deolali and was trying to find out more about this beautiful place. @Zaheer Ameer do you still live Deolali? Is the Turkish graves inside the military area? 

I am a PhD scholar at dept of theoretical physics, TIFR Mumbai, my father is retired teacher from K.V and lives in devlali.

Hey Jatin, 

Sorry for the delayed response. I still live in Deolali and love this place. Yes. There are still Turkish Graves in Muslim Cemetery. Let me know if you need input on that. 

Thanks for reaching out. I am available at +91 8308820978 

Cheers!!!