Archangel campaign

[longbow]

I am trying to research William Burton of Rugby, Warwickshire. I believe that he served in the Royal Warwickshire regiment. He died in 1942 from 'Emphysemia as a result of gas in WW1'. I have a photo of him in a hospital uniform which I believe was taken after hospitalisation in Italy - is that likely? He also served in Archangel at the end of WW1 and was mentioned in despatches, receiving his oak leaves. Any help would be much appreciated.

[sotonmate]

longbow

Welcome to the Forum !

I thought it might be straightforward when I saw that the only regular Battalion of the R Warks to go to Italy was the 2nd,with 22 Brigade of 7 Division. Then I also noticed that 48 Division had a collection of R Warks New Army Battalions 1/5,1/6.1/7,1/8,the 14th 15th and 16th Service Battalions.

There are also quite a few William Burtons with a R Warks connection in the medal index cards on Ancestry UK. You may know that there are two days left of a free month looking at WW1 records. If you haven't done so then I would suggest that you took a look at both medal and service records.

Sotonmate

[Rainbowsearch]

William Burton was my grandfather.  I have a\ little more information for you, if it helps.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum; longbow hasn’t visited the forum since 2016. You can try to send them a private message after you have made two posts. 

Michelle 

[Matlock1418]

On 29/11/2008 at 18:46, longbow said:

mentioned in despatches, receiving his oak leaves

It would help if we had more clues but ... 

The only William Burton, with the RWR I have so far found with a MIC [BWM & VM] with MiD was

60727 / 267714

LCpl 2nd Battalion

LG = https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31106/supplement/280

???

:-) M

 

Edit: Pension cards [as 60727] give his widow as Margaret Louisa Burton and a 1942 address of 61 Deering Rd, Hillmarton, Rugby for her [first claim seems to be about 21-6-1920 - would perhaps be OK for a disability, but not the widow part.  The helpful news is that the two widow's cards are on cards of batches printed in 1940 and 1942 and the first disability card has a 5/11/1942 annotation against the widow's pension claim ref no. 11/W/81565, same as the other cards tying them all nicely together - another annotation on a widow's card reverse potentially suggests she made the claim in c.10/1942] - Do those that help determine if I have the right man in the OP? I think they probably do.  I suspect I might have found him. 

Perhaps now for the rest of the OP's puzzle. ???

Edited 12 February , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[Rainbowsearch]

My mother, (Florence) Eileen Clarke (nee Burton) was the youngest daughter of William and Margaret Burton of 61 Deerings Road, Hillmorton, Rugby, Warwickshire .  They had 10 children.  My Mother told me that her father had "won Oak Leaves" in the First World War and died of asthma when she was 16 years old which would have been 1942.  My Mother's eldest sister, Edna Green (nee Burton) told me that she had her Father's Oak Leaves which she was intending to bequeath to the eldest grandson.  I now assume that your member "Longbow" is my eldest male cousin on my Mum's side.  - I am keeping his name confidential.  He sadly died just a few years' ago.  I am sure that you have the correct William Burton.  I found a record of a Corporal Burton, age 30, of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment 7th Reserve Battalion Service Number 267714 being admitted somewhere with "sprained back muscles" and discharged on 17/07/1917 with 14 days light duty.  I also found a record suggesting that he was mentioned in despatches for his service in Italy.  

[Matlock1418]

Hi Rainbowsearch,

Welcome to GWF.

Glad we now have confirmed the right William Burton to look into, I couldn't really see otherwise.

You have kindly given us more into to track too - Sorry to hear about your cousin, [no problem with you keeping his name  to yourself]

10 hours ago, Rainbowsearch said:

I also found a record suggesting that he was mentioned in despatches for his service in Italy.  

Returning to my earlier post if you open the LG [London Gazette] link and move to the first page you will indeed see his MiD was for services in Italy.

This is useful as it appears to give us a time period to look at: 26 Feb to 14 Sep 1918

Image courtesy of the London Gazette - with thanks

 

And his entry gives us a RWR Battalion: 2nd Battalion

Image courtesy of the London Gazette - with thanks

 

Thence the relevant War Diary seems to be found within this one for 22 Infantry Brigade 1917 - 1919 [part of 7 Division I thinkI https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557379

Sadly it has not yet been digitised so a visit by somebody to the National Archives at Kew will be required to read in the future.

He is unlikely to get much of a mention [if any] but would probably a general idea/flavour of what his service there was likely to have entailed [admittedly from the perspective of higher ranks!]

 

I hope my posts are of interest and perhaps a lead to other things for you.

Have you discovered/got any more about the Russian events mentioned by 'longbow'?

:-) M

 

 

Edited 13 February , 2021 by Matlock1418

[Rainbowsearch]

I have seen nothing about Archangel but will now search.  The citation I found for "mentioned in despatches" was -

W

Surname:

Burton

Rank:

Lance Corporal

Service Number:

267714

Gazette Info:

Gazette 31106 Mentioned in Despatches. The following despatch has been received by the Secretary of State for War from General F.R., Earl of Cavan, K.P., K.C.B., M.V.O. Commander-in-Chief of the British Forces in Italy. I have the honour to submit the name of this person who is serving or who has served under my command during the period February 26th 1918 to midnight, September 14th 1918 who’s distinguished and gallant services and devotion to duty I consider deserving of special mention

Gazette Date:

03/01/1919

Gazette Page:

280

Duty Location:

Italy

Service:

British Army

Regiment:

Royal Warwickshire Regiment

Battalion:

2nd Battalion (Why is this important?)

[longbow]

16 hours ago, Rainbowsearch said:

William Burton was my grandfather.  I have a\ little more information for you, if it helps.

Interesting to see renewed interest in my original post. Your assumption of my recent demise is fortunately premature, (I am not your eldest cousin, but obviously a cousin nonetheless). I have been trying to compile information on my grandfather for some years, but information on his service in Russia has eluded me, as has the action which lead to the award of his oak leaves. I have never seen his medals, nor his oak leaves, and as executor of Edna Green's estate they were not part of the estate (there may be a reason that I am reluctant to publicly post). I know that he was hospitalised since there is a photo of him in a hospital uniform, which I can share, but the reason for his hospitalisation has also eluded me. I understand that his death in 1942 from emphysema consequential to gas in WW1. I am keen to know more.

[Keith_history_buff]

If you want to find out more about Archangel, this has to be the go-to publication in the english language on the subject:

 

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

If you want to find out more about Archangel, this has to be the go-to publication in the english language on the subject

Agreed, an interesting read.

However - We seem to need more to go on to confirm he did go, and to aid our searching [well I need more to go on! ;-)]

:-) M

[Rainbowsearch]

Hello Longbow

 

You are not who I thought you were!  Sorry!    We have many cousins between us.  As regards Archangel, I assume that Grandad may not have then served with the Warwickshire regiment.  So, if we are searching for him, we may need to look for another regiment.

 

 

[longbow]

Hello Rainbowsearch, you are talking to John. Grandad had 2 service numbers and his medal index card is available online. It does not mention service in Russia, which is a surprise. I have an artillery shell casing that grandad 'decorated' with leaf motifs, and which supposedly came from Russia. So whether he served in Russia or not is, at this time, a family story only, but my mother's knowledge of military history was zero, and she was quite certain of his service in Russia. Strangely, she never mentioned that he served in Italy, even though she had an Italian Christmas card that grandad sent her when he was there. Her other family legends (mentioned in despatches) turned out to be true, and so I can't believe she made up the Archangel connection, however much family stories become scrambled. Its good to hear from you.

[Matlock1418]

12 minutes ago, longbow said:

I have an artillery shell casing that grandad 'decorated' with leaf motifs, and which supposedly came from Russia

If you can post a photo of the bottom of the shell case the expected marking thereon might be able to enlighten us if it could have come from a batch that was perhaps sent to Russia - there are many very expert pals on GWF who can interpret in great detail [ but perhaps not the name or boot size of the gunner who fired it! ;-) ]

But, in hope ...

:-) M

[longbow]

Thanks for the information Matlock. That's unexpected but a very interesting line to investigate. I will definitely follow that up. Regards and Respect.

[Rainbowsearch]

Hi John

 

It's Diana here. How exciting and unexpected to make contact with you. I have ordered the book on the Archangel campaign, just in case it gives us a lead.  I am not sure how we can contact one another confidentially through this site.  I am happy to continue with this thread but if you would like a general chat, send your private email contact to me via pm and I will pick it up from there.

 

Dx 

[Matlock1418]

46 minutes ago, Rainbowsearch said:

It's Diana here. How exciting and unexpected to make contact with you. I have ordered the book on the Archangel campaign, just in case it gives us a lead.  I am not sure how we can contact one another confidentially through this site.  I am happy to continue with this thread but if you would like a general chat, send your private email contact to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and I will pick it up from there.

Rainbowsearch / Diane - I strongly suggest you remove your e-mail address [so spammers don't get it] by editing your recent post - see the three ... pips at top right of your post.

If you want to contact longbow then you can Private Message [PM] each other here on GWF and/or via that set up your own private methods of communication 

How to do - hover over his avatar/name and you will see his profile pop up - follow that to messaging.

 @longbow / John - see above.

:-) M

[DavidOwen]

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Rainbowsearch / Diane - I strongly suggest you remove your e-mail address [so spammers don't get it] by editing your recent post - see the three ... pips at top right of your post.

If you want to contact longbow then you can Private Message [PM] each other here on GWF and/or via that set up your own private methods of communication 

How to do - hover over his avatar/name and you will see his profile pop up - follow that to messaging.

 @longbow / John - see above.

:-) M

Edited and email removed.

[DavidOwen]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks David - surely better!

;-) M

And thank you for the good advice.

[longbow]

Wise words about security there - thanks everyone.

Regarding grandad's service in Russia, I notice from the recruitment advert featured on the cover of Damien Wright's book that the British forces to Russia were drawn from recruits, so if grandad did indeed serve in Archangel he would have been in a different regiment to the Royal Warwicks.  I do remember my mother saying that he went to Russia because they were paying a big bonus, and that does fit with the recruitment poster, so perhaps there is a factual thread to the story. I also notice that the archive on the Russian campaign was sealed for 50 years since we had unofficially invaded Soviet Russia, which was politically sensitive. So it may be tricky to pick this apart. 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, longbow said:

So it may be tricky to pick this apart. 

Possibly/probably so - But never let it be said that we at GWF don't like a challenge!

= Do you know how long he served after the war? - said because the MoD actually retain some WW1 service records of those born before 1901 who served to/after 1921.

May be harder if we don't have any late service details but I believe they are not absolutely essential [or so they would have us believe]

= Have you his date of birth please?

- Others at GWF can often tell if someone's is on their list - anybody got a William Burton?

May perhaps be available at  https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records - £30, and a long wait I might suspect.

Meantime, we'll keep on the case with whatever you might be able to share.

:-) M

 

 

Edited 13 February , 2021 by Matlock1418
question on DoB

[Rainbowsearch]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks David - surely better!

;-) M

 

Thanks for the edit.  I used a bland email address but am still pleased to have it taken down.

[Rainbowsearch]

I have found two records for William Burton with service numbers 2068/S and RMA/2068/S.  His primary unit is specified as Royal Marine Artillery in one case and Royal Marine Artillery (short service) in the other.  In one there is reference to an "Incident Date" of 1918 and an Archive Reference of ADM171-167.  - To what does the archive reference refer?

 

From Wikipedia, I notice that the British Army in the North Russia Intervention included 6th Battalion Royal Marine Light Infantry (RMLI).  In note 12 at the end of the Wikipedia description of the North Russia Intervention  it says -

 

"The British 6th Battalion Royal Marines Light Infantry (RMLI) was scratched together from a company of Royal Marine Artillery ......"

 

So, putting all of the information together, it might be a fair hunch that Grandad took on a short service appointment in the Royal Marine Artillery which was then joined into the RMLI and went off to Russia.

 

I suppose that we now need to corroborate the hypothesis?

 

I would be happy to pay for a copy of service records.  For purposes of the investigation into Grandad's possible deployment to Russia, should I use the RMA/2068/S number? - Or should I try all his various service numbers?

 

 

 

 

[Rainbowsearch]

I have found two records for William Burton with service numbers 2068/S and RMA/2068/S.  His primary unit is specified as Royal Marine Artillery in one case and Royal Marine Artillery (short service) in the other.  In one there is reference to an "Incident Date" of 1918 and an Archive Reference of ADM171-167.  - To what does the archive reference refer?

 

From Wikipedia, I notice that the British Army in the North Russia Intervention included 6th Battalion Royal Marine Light Infantry (RMLI).  In note 12 at the end of the Wikipedia description of the North Russia Intervention  it says -

 

"The British 6th Battalion Royal Marines Light Infantry (RMLI) was scratched together from a company of Royal Marine Artillery ......"

 

So, putting all of the information together, it might be a fair hunch that Grandad took on a short service appointment in the Royal Marine Artillery which was then joined into the RMLI and went off to Russia.

 

I suppose that we now need to corroborate the hypothesis?

 

I would be happy to pay for a copy of service records.  For purposes of the investigation into Grandad's possible deployment to Russia, should I use the RMA/2068/S number? - Or should I try all his various service numbers?

 

Subsequent to my notes above, I have found the attached record.  It refers to a William Burton in the Royal Marines with a  Service number Chatham13218 but the Archive reference is the same as that for the Service Number 2068/S referred to above ie Archive Reference ADM171-167.  In another discussion on this site (relating to Royal Marine Mutineers at Murmansk in 1919), there is reference to RMLI Chatham company members fighting at Koikori and Svyatnavolok.  DoW Burton another overlapping record.pdfes this help?

 

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

On 13/02/2021 at 14:54, Rainbowsearch said:

I have ordered the book on the Archangel campaign, just in case it gives us a lead.

If you are interested in campaigns beyond the Western Front, Italy perhaps per chance, then if you have not already done so you might also be interested to read:

"The White War: Life and Death on the Italian Front, 1915-1919" by Mark Thompson.

Been quite a while since I read it but although mainly about the Italian efforts it does mention the British a bit.

Illuminating and horrifying [it wasn't just the WF that was a 'meat grinder']

Interesting further photographic images of that front [mostly modern] in the quite recent GWF threads by tomissit - search under "Extreme Battlefield Tour" and "Ultimate Battlefields Tour"

:-) M