Honoured At Last

[keithmroberts]

"Then, and please correct me if I am wrong., we must forgive the perpatrators of the Holocaust as those were different times and accountability is not required."

Enfield

That really is a cheap shot that does not help your argument. The crimes of the Nazis were manifestly evil in their own time. Theyn were very quickly declared to be war crimes and prosecuted accordingly. Those who avoided justice by flight were quite properly pursued.

Keith

[Ann Sinnott]

... by people with a wholly different background, upbringing and set of beliefs.

Yes, in terms of values and psychiatric knowledge, not so in terms of legal process. It seems in too many cases, the standard military legal process of the day was not followed. This is at least one basis on which right and wrong can be judged.

We can't bring anyone back, those that fell or those that were felled, but we to continue to remember. Lest we forget...

[Steven Broomfield]

Since I've been a member of this Forum, the SAD matter has been visited, revisited, re-revisited and even re-re-revisited to the nth degree.

No argument put forward has ever changed anyone's opinion, as far as I can see. Certainly no argument is going to change my mind, or ( suspect) Enfield's.

I'm sorry to say that I actually feel this is one that the Mods should leave on the barred list, simply because it always sheds much more heat than light and always ends up with the two 'sides' even more entrenched than they were to begin.

[Ann Sinnott]

Steven

I disagree - you might rightly say that that's because I'm new to the forum!

Debate is healthy, though it does depend on the level. This thread, in my opinion, is largely taking place on a good level. There are and always will be thorny historical issues that go on and on. To my mind, there's value in discussing them. The issue of SAD will no doubt be talked and argued about by generations coming up, and those after them - if the planet holds out! [an off-topic comment - not to be responded to!]

Ann

[Ann Sinnott]

In case the MODs act on Steven's suggestion , and apropos the suffering of families, which included the denial of War pensions to widows, here are some cases reported in the press I came across (believe some individuals were mentioned by others in this thread:

The Mirror 22.6.2006

WILLIAM NELSON, 19

BILLY was executed after 11 months in the trenches only days after being wounded in the Battle of Loos. The soldier's crime was to miss his unit going over the top because he was having his first meal for days, with permission, in another part of the battlefield. He had absconded three times before - but only at times of family crisis, which included the death of his mother, leaving his 12-year-old sister to look after a younger brother and his father in a German POW losing his eyesight due to bad treatment. Billy's trial lasted five minutes. He had no one to represent him. Billy's death warrant describes him as being "of no more military use".

CHARLES NICHOLSON, 19

Took less than ten minutes to sentence him to death. The evidence came from his platoon sergeant who told the court that the private had gone AWOL following a bombing raid. The only defence was an 11-word statement from Charles. He said: "When the bomb dropped, I got nervous. I can't say anything else." Nicholson’s niece Doris Conroy, 80, of Glasgow, says: "The disgrace was a lot to live with. My dad never told me how his brother died - I only found out 15 years ago when I saw his name in a newspaper." Confirmation process documents reveal he was executed to deter deserters.

PETER GOGGINS, 22

One of seven soldiers guarding positions in the early hours of November 26, 1916. Most of his fellow soldiers from 19th Durham Light Infantry had been taken off the frontline after rumours the Germans were about to launch a gas attack. As the guns fell silent, a sergeant and captain ventured into No Man's Land for a reccie -- but they were ambushed. Shortly after 2.30am the sergeant managed to stagger back shouting, "Run for your lives, the Huns are on top of you!" Peter, himself a sergeant, scrambled out of the dugout, withdrawing to a reserve trench 20 yards away - but it turned out to be a false alarm. With the six others, he faced charges of deserting his post, and was court-martialled on Christmas Eve. Even though the sergeant confirmed he had given the orders to retreat, Peter was executed a week later along with two others.

ABRAHAM BEVISTEIN, 17

Had been with his battalion for less than a month when a grenade exploded next to him, leaving him with shellshocked. Leaving his position in the front-line trenches, he went to one of the company headquarters at the rear to ask for help. When the medical officer insisted he was all right and ordered him back, the bewildered teenager wandered off and was arrested. His niece Betty Jacobs, 74, of Ontario, Canada, says: "Aby's family did not know he had joined up until he came home in his uniform. Can you imagine how they felt when the telegram arrived telling them he'd been shot for desertion? It was the beginning of the end for my grandmother. He was just a scared, innocent boy. But they just didn't care about him, especially as he was an uneducated Jewish boy from the East End of London.”

WILLIAM STONES, 25

Giving evidence at his trial, a Company Sergeant Major said of Stones: "He is the last man I would have thought capable of any cowardly action." Four other soldiers also leapt to his defence, saying Stones had "always been a good soldier", that he was "always keen and bold". He proved himself brave and able and was quickly promoted to the rank of Lance Corporal in the Durham Light Infantry. He fought courageously through the bloodshed of the Somme and in four other intense battles. Was executed for cowardice after he jammed his rifle across one of the narrow trenches in a quick-thinking attempt to block a rush of oncoming Germans. He then shouted warnings to his comrades, as his senior had commanded him to, but having just seen his Lieutenant shot by a group of enemy soldiers, he was too confused to join the counter-attack. Shot for cowardice, despite the fact that five men spoke up in his defense. When his widow went to collect her War Widow's Pension, she was told, the British Army does not give pensions to widows of cowards.

[stiletto_33853]

Ann,

I have been keeping a close eye on this thread and we have let it run so far. As you say debate is healthy, however, we have seen little debate and some entrenched views from a certain poster who would appear to have closed his mind totally to other peoples views and, is yet to answer some of the questions posed by other members. Not something new to this poster having read some of the other material posted on this forum by this member.

For sometime the subject of SAD was banned, and for good reason. It is an emotive subject with some vey knowledgeable members on the forum regarding the subject. SAD has for a few months been allowed to be discussed again, but this is not exactly a glowing example as to why it should remain so.

Andy

[Waffenlandser]

Its quite amazing this repeated tactic when a thread is posted that does not sit well with the more senior members there is a request that the mods trash or ban the topic under discussion.

This thread is not about disrespect or dishonor. Its about investigating the past. Its about questioning the actions of those who brought so much death and suffering. Cold case investigators in this country are still digging up evidence to bring closure to crimes commited decades ago. The files of past injustices must never be closes. If they are, then we are indeed insulting the memories of those who died so horribly so long ago.

The mods my ban the subject of SAD, but that just sweeps the dirt under the rug. It does not help bring honor to these brave and courageous heros. We remmeber the deaths of brave soldiers every day on this forum. We need also remember the deeds of the villains who caused the suffering and especially the injustices of that time in history.

This thread is about healthy debate. Its not about personal agendas and personal bones to chew. Evidence presented regarding SAD in this thread is not old stuff. Newer issues have been presented to further take the stigma of cowardice and desertion away from the pathetic young boys tied to a poast and murdered by their fellow country men.

I and others have laid down decent and credible arguments. These arguments have by and large been ignored and thinly veiled insults and sneering replies have been the order of the day from those more senior in rank.

What is expected from us here. To meekly post rememberaces and make enquiries about soldiers and regiments or to have the fortitude to question the actions of those long gone? Its done about Waterloo, Normandy, Agincourt and Gettysburg. Why not WW1?

Anne and I have both posted individual soldier's stories in the hope it will bring comfort to the still living families who still mourn and feel the sting of shame and scorn of those who still regard their ancestors as shirkers and rogues. We are their vioce. We speak for them.

If Steve feels it spreads more heat than light, then its his heat he is feeling and not that of society. This thread does shed light. A light long needed to dispell the darikness of 1917.

This thread is like the Holocaust memorial services. Its written lest we forget. The SAD is certainly not less forgetable than the Holocaust. The cheap shots are from those who do see a difference.

We will not be silenced.

As to Ian Grant asking "how the hell can yo etc etc etc.........I wonder how many medical examinations you have done Ian????

Look at that pathetic little piece of paper on which the medical exam is documented.

The man is turned down as he " is unable to understand and appreciate orders" Who says this is a psychiatric issue?

Finally I wish to respectfully answer forum Admin. I have tried to answer all arguments submitted by other members. My mind is not closed to reasonable countering of my arguments. I have shown respect and tolerance. What exactly is a glowing example then Admin? All in initially wanted to do was to show a recent press release on the Popringe memorial. It was the forum that turned it into a debate. Not me.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Am I the only one to smell a rat here? Some of this looks particularly well prepared and is very reminiscent of the stuff from campaigners who are (as far as we know) no longer members of this board.

[John_Hartley]

What is the basis for your belief? What is a small number?

Ann

I wouldnt presume to put an actual figure on it. However, the basis for the belief is from the reading of the "standard" works - Babington, Putkowski, Corms & Hughes-Wilson, etc, plus the regualr discussions that have taken place on the GWF over the years. In particular, Putkowski's "Shot at Dawn" is a very helpful book bearing in mind the author's committment to and involvement in the pardons campaign. I reckon a pretty good starting point is that if Putkowski doesnt try to explain or defend a particular man's actions then it is probably impossible to find a defence.

I have particular knowledge of the five cases that I've mentioned up-thread (the three DLI men and the two Manchesters) and I'd suggest that there is absolutely no evidence of shell-shock in any of these cases. If there had been and it was known to the judicial process and ignored, then I agree a miscarriage of justice would have taken place (as, say, in the Farr case)

John

(Subsequent addition - Ann, I'm afraid that you present evidence of little more than one shouldnt believe everything one reads in the papers. There is almost nothing accurate in the Mirror's report of the Goggins case. In particular and of significance, no-one was ever identified as having said "run for your lives" nor is there any indication of an officer and sergeant being out in No Man's Land. Extremely shoddy journalism, but unsurprising)

Edited 30 November , 2008 by John Hartley

[Waffenlandser]

there is absolutely no evidence of shell-shock in any of these cases.

All clinical signs of Battle Fatigue can lie dormant once the stressor is removed. Patients can appear perfectly normal. When again subjected to trauma, they revert to the intial state.

I have not read all the cases, but those I have read show the most flimsy medical testimony. In today's justice system the psychiatric evaluation would be submitted by several competent psychiatrists for both the prosecution and defence. In no cases that I have reviewed has a defence appionted psychiatrist given testimony for the accused.

If anyone here smells a rat, allow me to assure you I have been on this forum since 2007. My IP address will assure the mods and Admin of this.

[Pete1052]

For sometime the subject of SAD was banned, and for good reason.

If I recall correctly Chris Baker, the founder of this forum, was threatened some years ago with legal action by one of the activists in the national debate over Shot at Dawn, and this was the main reason for the banning of discussion of the subject. The Great War Forum could have been shut down had legal expenses begun to pile up for no other reason than allowing the topic to be discussed.

Unfortunately Shot at Dawn and the reputation of Haig as a commander are subjects that many people see as either black or white issues with few shades of gray in between. Discussion of them usually leads to these kinds of binary debates in which neither side is willing to compromise or concede any points.

[John_Hartley]

was threatened some years ago with legal action by one of the activists in the national debate over Shot at Dawn,

Yes. It was over something I was involved in writing.

And, frankly, if the "activist" had threatened me directly and not Chris, then it would have been going to court. Or, more to the point , it would not be going to court as any lawyer would have laughed in matey's face. It was a load of guff on his part intended to shut down discussion. And it worked.

There are well known defences to claims for defamation in the British courts and every one applied in this case.

John

[59165]

All clinical signs of Battle Fatigue can lie dormant once the stressor is removed. Patients can appear perfectly normal. When again subjected to trauma, they revert to the intial state.

Hiya mate.

This I can relate to & not just from a military pov.The death of a parent,child or loved one(it was my mam's birthday yesterday,29th Nov.),seeing old photo's,hearing a sudden bang or even just a special bit of music can lead to all sort's of stress & shenanigans.

Being chucked into a war where you believed what the posters said,enlistment followed by a few weeks of induction, will not appease a weaker mind(spirit) & will lead to a make or break time in that persons life.

Some,I guess,were weaker than others.

So it was,so it shall be.

Dave.

What's your 1st name by the way?

[George Armstrong Custer]

If anyone here smells a rat, allow me to assure you I have been on this forum since 2007. My IP address will assure the mods and Admin of this.

You have indeed - and you've kept a low profile since 2007 until recent weeks, but unlike some of the recent guff you've posted you seem to have a real organised purpose with this thread. IP addresses can be most misleading.

[Waffenlandser]

First name is Barry. Called after my late grandad who was from the East end of London. Name was Barnet.

If all you can say Mr Custer, is that I post "Guff", then Guff it is to you, and common sense to the rest of us.

The Deserter by William Orpen.

Reminds one of some inquisition dungeon.

[Ian grant]

As to Ian Grant asking "how the hell can yo etc etc etc.........I wonder how many medical examinations you have done Ian????

Look at that pathetic little piece of paper on which the medical exam is documented.

The man is turned down as he " is unable to understand and appreciate orders" Who says this is a psychiatric issue?

Well Enfield i'll turn that one right back at you, how many have you made, and even if you are the Surgeon General of the United States, where is your evidence to support your inference that Sgt Stones was shell shocked ?- you still haven't answered that, where is your evidence to support your claim that men enlisting into the British Army were not given adequate medical examinations ? I supported my refute of your statement with written evidence, which by the way if you read it ( i know it's a bit blurry ) says before the line you quoted " This man is mentally deficient, and continues " is unable to understand and appreciate orders " Sounds like the medical officer made a Psychiatric evaluation to me !!

And as for your last statement that you had not intended to start a debate - rubbish !! after the Somme debate you knew straight away where this one would go ...... I'd say fair play to you, but only if you had the bottle to stand up and admit it.

You duck and dive Enfield, you wont back your arguments up with verifiable facts and when you get cornered by posters who do, you try and duck the issue again by making comparrisions such as with the Holocaust statement - DEAR OH DEAR !

The people on this forum who remember the debates past on this subject that have now been removed from the archives will perhaps remember my standpoint on the issue, that i've restated on this thread. So again i find myself replying to your posts not so much in the spirit of debate but to rubbish statements i can make no sense of.

[George Armstrong Custer]

The Deserter by William Orpen.

Reminds one of some inquisition dungeon.

Does it? Well if you read Orpen's account which I posted with that pic you'll know that the prisoner in that cell was a professional con man who well deserved to be there, so your point is - what?

[AlanCurragh]

Finally I wish to respectfully answer forum Admin. I have tried to answer all arguments submitted by other members. My mind is not closed to reasonable countering of my arguments.

EC - you stated that no officers had been executed - I assume to make a point. I stated this was not true.

I would have expected you to withdraw your comment, or at least mention the point. You chose not to do so.

Regardless of the opinions you raise, why should anyone take seriously any "facts" you mention, when you make such a basic error?

Alan

[Waffenlandser]

Sounds like the medical officer made a Psychiatric evaluation to me !!

"mentally deficient" is not a psychiatric diagnosis. Its an observation. A savant is mentally impaired ands can be a brilliant mathematician. The medical examinations in WW1 were done by older country GPs attached to the army. They had little, if any psychiatric training. Most medical students recieve three months basic education in behavioral medicine even today. In 1914 it was negligible.

What proof do I have of the cursory examinations???? Heavens alive read your books on WW1 and see the descriptions of the medical exam.

I was reprimanded in one post about not making judgements on events of long ago. It was intimated that those were tough times and needed harsh measures. The Holocaust was also in tough times, but did that excuse the monsters who took part in that massacre??No it certainly did not. Same applies to SAD.

The whole offense against me is tht I am not proving the men SAD were suffering from Battle Fatigue. I cant because none of the deeper clinical issues were ever published. All I can do is make my own assessments and come to a likely diagnosis. Being a professional in this field, I am sure I can be given some lee way here. If a man deserts and then hands himself over to the guardroom, then it says something of his being out of touch with reality. He knows full well the punishment for his offense is death. If a man becomes disoriented and loses touch with his comrades, he is out of touch.

British military psychiatry was in its infancy in 1917. It took the Americans to bring it up to scratch.

No I am not the SG of the US. Just an ordinary practitioner trying to do his best.

[Kate Wills]

It does not help bring honor to these brave and courageous heros. We remember the deaths of brave soldiers every day on this forum. We need also remember the deeds of the villains who caused the suffering and especially the injustices of that time in history.

Anne and I have both posted individual soldier's stories in the hope it will bring comfort to the still living families who still mourn and feel the sting of shame and scorn of those who still regard their ancestors as shirkers and rogues. We are their vioce. We speak for them.

This thread is like the Holocaust memorial services. Its written lest we forget. The SAD is certainly not less forgetable than the Holocaust. The cheap shots are from those who do see a difference.

We will not be silenced.

"We"?

There are many 'we's in the excerpt above. Who are this body of 'we's that "hope to bring comfort to the still living families who still mourn?"

Barry, if you think you strengthen your argument by likening SAD to the Holocaust, then you are sadly mistaken. Aside from the matter of scale, show me the Holocaust victim who enlisted and earned an wage from the Nazi regime.

[Waffenlandser]

Mod please dont get me wrong here. Never. Ever will I dare to compare the two. Its the basic principle I am trying to illustrate. Lets then substitute the Holocaust for the blitz or Coventry then.

In reply to others.

Between 1914 and 1918, the British Army identified 80,000 men with what would now be defined as the symptoms of shellshock. There were those who suffered from severe shell shock. They could not stand the thought of being on the front line any longer and deserted. Once caught, they received a court martial and, if sentenced to death, shot by a twelve man firing squad.

The horrors that men from all sides endured while on the front line can only be imagined.

Abe Bevistein shot for desertion at age 16.

"We were in the trenches. I was so cold I went out (and took shelter in a farm house). They took me to prison so I will have to go in front of the court. I will try my best to get out of it, so don't worry."

show me the Holocaust victim who enlisted and earned an wage from the Nazi regime.

Both died horrible deahts. Both were victims of war.

[Waffenlandser]

Who are this body of 'we's that "hope to bring comfort to the still living families who still mourn?"

The countless vioces of dissent, most not forum members. The silent thousands who bear their pain in silence.

[Kate Wills]

Mod please dont get me wrong here. Never. Ever will I dare to compare the two. Its the basic principle I am trying to illustrate. Lets then substitute the Holocaust for the blitz or Coventry then.

I'd rather not if you don't mind. Living 40 miles awy from Coventry and being all too familiar with the situation is one reason. The other is that there is no comparison.

and by the way, I do not hide behind a fancy nom de plume. I have a name, and it is not 'mod'.

[Kate Wills]

The countless vioces of dissent, most not forum members. The silent thousands who bear their pain in silence.

If they are that silent I'm surprised you know their number.

So this is an organisation, is it? These countless voices of dissent?

[Waffenlandser]

.

and by the way, I do not hide behind a fancy nom de plume. I have a name, and it is not 'mod'.

Apologies Kate. I am accustomed to calling admin Mod.

It seems that whatever I say is dissected like a high school frog. Its not the Holocaust Its not Coventry. Fine. Like almost all here I have a nick. Its not fancy. Its my hobby.