ROBERT COPPING

[john kemp]

Been asked to research the following

ROBERT COPPING MIDDLESEX 12703 & THEN TRANS TO MACHINE GUN CORPS 24959.

I am presuming from quick search he went into the MGC approx when the MGC was set up and appears to have survived the war.

As MGC would have been main targets my early thoughts are he was very lucky.

Anyone done any reserach into MGC to know casualty rates?

[hmsk212]

Hi

With a service number of 24959 he would have joined the Machine Gun Corps in around early March 1916.

Steve

[14kvn]

Hi

With a service number of 24959 he would have joined the Machine Gun Corps in around early March 1916.

Steve

Sorry Steve I cannot agree with that .

I have a copy of an MGC War Badge sheet and there is absolutely no correlation between enlistment date and MGC service number . The 12 numbers I have range from 4615 to 73629 with enlistment dates from 1914, 15 & 16.

As it happens my Grandfather's enlistment date of 27/07/1916 is the latest one on that sheet and his number was 22838.

Maybe someone else knows but I am assuming batches of numbers were allocated to Divisions or Regiments and a mans MGC number would depend on which Regiment he came from.

Regards

Kevin

[john kemp]

Thanks Guys.

The Medal roll online seems to show MGC 101B18 1915

I therefore presumed 1915 being the date he switched from the Middx.

[Staffsyeoman]

John, that's not a date - it's a reference to the Medal Roll.

[hmsk212]

Sorry Steve I cannot agree with that .

I have a copy of an MGC War Badge sheet and there is absolutely no correlation between enlistment date and MGC service number . The 12 numbers I have range from 4615 to 73629 with enlistment dates from 1914, 15 & 16.

As it happens my Grandfather's enlistment date of 27/07/1916 is the latest one on that sheet and his number was 22838.

Maybe someone else knows but I am assuming batches of numbers were allocated to Divisions or Regiments and a mans MGC number would depend on which Regiment he came from.

Regards

Kevin

Hi Kevin

Having studied the MGC for at least 10 years I can assure you that the date is correct. I did not state that this was his enlistment date but the date he joined the Machine Gun Corps. The mans number was allocated to him by the date he joined the MGC. The War Badge Roll you refer to, MGC/279, has men enlisting in 1914, long before the MGC was formed. Most men in the early days of the MGC were transferred from other Regiments rather than enlisting straight into the Corps. Even your own grandfather originally served in the Cambridgeshire Regiment before transferring to the MGC. He would have transferred in late February 1916. I know the War Badge Roll states his date of enlistment as 27/07/1916 but this is obviously an error because he was awarded the 1914/15 Star with a date of entry of 14/02/1915, landing in France I would assume with the 1/1st Cambridgeshire Regiment.

Steve

[hmsk212]

The Medal roll online seems to show MGC 101B18 1915

The British War & Medal Roll, the reference to which you refer, to can be found in WO329/1740 page 1915

Steve

[14kvn]

Hi Kevin

Having studied the MGC for at least 10 years I can assure you that the date is correct. I did not state that this was his enlistment date but the date he joined the Machine Gun Corps. The mans number was allocated to him by the date he joined the MGC. The War Badge Roll you refer to, MGC/279, has men enlisting in 1914, long before the MGC was formed. Most men in the early days of the MGC were transferred from other Regiments rather than enlisting straight into the Corps. Even your own grandfather originally served in the Cambridgeshire Regiment before transferring to the MGC. He would have transferred in late February 1916. I know the War Badge Roll states his date of enlistment as 27/07/1916 but this is obviously an error because he was awarded the 1914/15 Star with a date of entry of 14/02/1915, landing in France I would assume with the 1/1st Cambridgeshire Regiment.

Steve

Steve

Thanks Steve. I appreciate that you have much more experience in these matters but something here does not make sense to me. I agree that members of the MGC were recruited from existing Regiments and not initially put into the MGC as a first posting. I have from another source that 40 men from the 1/1 Cambridgeshire were transferred to the MGC on 29 February 1916 and their MGC numbers were 21926 to 21965 . As my Grandfather's number is given as 22838 and using your argument then he joined at a later date so I'm thinking maybe the date on MGC/279 is correct ? However, you are saying that number 24959 joined in early March on which basis you would say my Grandfather ( 22838 ) must have joined in very early March ???

This begs the question for me of why the delay especially as I know he was already a battalion machine gunner and was trained as such from his enlistment in Sept. 1914. You are correct about his departure to France / Flanders on 14/02 1915 with the 1/1 Cambs - D Coy ( March and Ely ) and yes I have his 1914/15 Star. I believe at that time the 1/1 Cambs only had four Machine Guns. I have a Group picture of about 50 men in the 1/1 Cambs taken I believe when they were at Flixecourt in winter 1915/16 possibly outside a Cafe in Amiens. My Grandfather can be seen with a M G . As a trained and by then experienced Gunner it seems strange he was not transferred in the initial batch from the 1/1 Cambs.

The Discharge date on MGC /279 is certainly correct - he was given a disabled honourable discharge on 12/03/1918. I have the original document seemingly signed by the King but I suspect only a facsimile of his signature.

Regards

Kevin

[hmsk212]

Bangs his head against a wall but decides to continue.

The date shown on MGC/279 is his enlistment date but it is wrong as can be verified by his 1914/15 Star. It is not in any way shape or form the date that he transferred to the MGC. I said late February 1916 but I may have been about a day or two out at the most, it could have been very early March 1916, vast quantities of men were being transferred at this time from all sorts of Regiments both at home and abroad.

Steve

[Stebie9173]

With very broad brush-strokes if appear that the following early numbers were issued:

1 to 3000 = Motor Machine Gun Corps numbers issued late 1915/early 1916?

3001 to somewhere between Nos. 25 & 30000 = The mass transfer of men to the Mchine Gun Companies in late February/early March 1916.

30000 to 40000 the start of the issuing of numbers to men transferring to the MGC after the main transfer.

Some numbers in the 40000 range were issued to ex- Territorial men whose official transfer was delayed due to what seems to be bureaucratic issues - the MGC was wholly Regular Army, so the T.F. men had to be discharged and re-enlisted. This occured in June/July 1916. men were still in their Machine Gun Companies between Match and June 1916, but were attached rather than officially transferred.

As mentioned on the other topic, this does beg the question why the Cambridgeshire Regiment men (all T.F.) had numbers in the 20000s rather than the slightly later ones....

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=98258&hl=

In essence, I am agreeing with the other Steve.

Steve.

[14kvn]

As mentioned on the other topic, this does beg the question why the Cambridgeshire Regiment men (all T.F.) had numbers in the 20000s rather than the slightly later ones....

Steve.

Hi Steve

Thanks for that . It is the essence of my query.

Question - do you know if the enlistment date shown on the MGC/279 pages refers to the date of the Soldiers original enlistment into the Army or the date they entered the MGC ?

regards

Kevin

[Stebie9173]

Almost certainly (like 99% certain), the Army, not enlistment into the MGC.

Steve.

[john kemp]

Thanks guys,

Will have to make a visit to Kew, sorry to bring on a stroing debate!

[14kvn]

Almost certainly (like 99% certain), the Army, not enlistment into the MGC.

Steve.

Thanks Steve

That helps a lot.

I am pursuing the Cambridgeshire numbers from other sources - I'll let you know if I find anything .

Regards

Kevin