An Interesting Martynside G102 Elephant

[pearsonica]

Can anybody help me here. I have a photo of a very interesting Martynside G102 Elephant. It appears to have 3 machine guns pointing at 45deg. and a sight in front of the cockpit sighted at 45deg. Grandfather was in 27 Squadron based at Rochford (now Southend Airport) he was brought home from the Somme to take on the Gotha and Zeppelin threat. May be this aircraft was adapted to shoot up at the Zeppelin while preventing the aircraft from stalling. Any body else know of other pilots from 21, 27 or 25 Squadron that he may have flew with.

[Dolphin]

Bigs

The aeroplane behind the Martinsyde is interesting too. It's captured Albatros D.V 2129/17, which was allotted the British serial number G56, and tested at Martlesham Heath in November 1917.

Gareth

[fetubi]

Bigs,

A6299 was with 39 Squadron on home defence duties in late 1917. There is another photo of it in the Profile pamphlet dealing with the Martynside G types. It was at North Weald and, for example, flew an Anti-Zep patrol on 19 Oct 1917 with Capt LE Eaman piloting. It needed to make a forced landing at Stow Maries and damaged its undercarriage.

Good photo, by the way.

Trevor

[pearsonica]

Well spotted. Do you know which Squadron/Pilot flew it? Do you think this photo was taken at Martlesham. I remember playing on the old airfield at Martlesham in the 1970's before the runway was dug up for a Housing estate. There are many old Buildings infront of the BT Site which could be WW1 or WW2 buidings.

Do you know where you can look up serial numbers of the aircraft. I have just found this faded picture. Do you reconise where this taken?

[pearsonica]

That is interesting because I have looked up Stow Maries WEB site and I found it mentions my Grandfather

http://www.angliamfc.org.uk/morehistory.html

On November 28, 1916, Captain K N Pearson of 'A' Flight at Rochford flew the first Home defence Squadron sortie when an LVG C IV was reported over London - it lasted one hour 40 minutes and was uneventful. 'C' Flight at Goldhanger flew its first two patrols on March 1, along with two from 'A' Flight; it is not known how any of them fared.

I visited Stow Maries recently and the airfield is just as they left it in 1918. I gave the farmer Photos of my Grandfather. He has now posted them on his web site above.

I therefore suspect this Photo of the Martynside was taken at Stow Maries Airfield. Here are some colour photos of the place now

[NigelS]

A quick look at Ray Sanger's The Martinsyde File (Air Britain) gives for A6299:

RAE Farnborough (experimental Eeman gun-firing); attached 39 sqdn for HD duties; crashed, Stow Marie, on patrol, 19.10.17 (Capt L E Eeman)

Sanger also gives that experiments at Orfordness had shown that it was easier to pick out aircraft from below rather than from above or the side and, that at about the same time, ballistic experts had discovered that bullets from a Lewis gun fired upwards at an angle of approx 45 deg. from an aircraft flying at 100mph follow a straight line for 600-800 yards because gravitational forces cancelled out the air resistance. Consequently Capt. LE Eeman devised the experimental system fitted to A6299 comprising triple Lewis guns mounted at 47 degrees to fire upwards and forwards through slots in the centre section. Gun laying was carried out by means of an Aldis sight. By the time the protype system had been completed in August '17 Gothas had been equipped with a downward pointing machine gun fitted to a ventral tunnel and, although possibly of use at night, with forward facing guns then considered essential, it was redundant for daylight operations. Eeman flew A6299 on anti Zeppelin patrols while with 39 Sqdn but never encountered any, so the system was never tried in anger.

There is also a coloured line drawing of this aircraft in the book

I'll have a scan through and see what, if any, information there is on 21,25 & 27 Sqdns

NigelS

[NigelS]

Hi Bigs

The Martinsydes File has quite a bit on 27 Sqdns activity on the Western Front with your grandfather named three times. Oddly, there is no mention of its involvement in home defence other than carrying out a search for Friederichschafen FF33e while the sqdn was stationed at Dover prior to going to the Western Front.

NigelS

[centurion]

The Eeman mount was also fitted to the Vickers FB26 Vampire of 1917 which like the Vickers Vampire of the late 1940s was a twin boom pusher (albeit with a piston engine!). Only 3 were completed. The Eeman on the Vampire was aimed straight forward. An SE 5a was also fitted with an Eeman mount - like the Elephant its Eeman was in the 25 degree position.

[mickdavis]

This is a very interesting photo. BE2c 2014 has quite a well documented history but your pic was definitely taken at Netheravon (the evidence lies in the tower and the corrugated, staggered, 1912 pattern sheds behind. The machine's history is:

2014 AID Farnborough dd ex Newcastle 30.8.1915. 1 AD St Omer dd from England 6.9.1915. 12 Sqn St Omer dd 6.9.1915, transferred to 7 Sqn St Omer/ Droglandt/ Bailleul 30.9.1915, in combat with large EA 5.1.1916 (2Lt Hagon/2Lt Boyton) and force-landed 18.3.1916 (2Lt Hagon/ Capt Kirkup). 1 AD St Omer ex 7 Sqn 20.3.1916 and deleted 23.3.1916.

I can only surmise that it was at Netheravon on its way to Farnborough.

[centurion]

A quick look at Ray Sanger's The Martinsyde File (Air Britain) gives for A6299:

RAE Farnborough (experimental Eeman gun-firing); attached 39 sqdn for HD duties; crashed, Stow Marie, on patrol, 19.10.17 (Capt L E Eeman)

Sanger also gives that experiments at Orfordness had shown that it was easier to pick out aircraft from below rather than from above or the side and, that at about the same time, ballistic experts had discovered that bullets from a Lewis gun fired upwards at an angle of approx 45 deg. from an aircraft flying at 100mph follow a straight line for 600-800 yards because gravitational forces cancelled out the air resistance. Consequently Capt. LE Eeman devised the experimental system fitted to A6299 comprising triple Lewis guns mounted at 47 degrees to fire upwards and forwards through slots in the centre section. Gun laying was carried out by means of an Aldis sight. By the time the protype system had been completed in August '17 Gothas had been equipped with a downward pointing machine gun fitted to a ventral tunnel and, although possibly of use at night, with forward facing guns then considered essential, it was redundant for daylight operations. Eeman flew A6299 on anti Zeppelin patrols while with 39 Sqdn but never encountered any, so the system was never tried in anger.

There is also a coloured line drawing of this aircraft in the book

I'll have a scan through and see what, if any, information there is on 21,25 & 27 Sqdns

Whilst it is true that it is easier to spot an aircraft at night against a clear sky than against the ground and the ballistics of the 45 degree shot were quite well known from quite early days the reason for the adoption of a 45 degree mounting (initially a single gun on the Be2 night fighters) was for another reason. Climb rates of the early night fighters were not good enough that they could guarantee to gain altitude fast enough to get above the Zeppelin, especially if the Zepp dropped ballast. Most attacks perforce had to be made from below. At the time the Eeman mounting was initially developed Gotha night attacks had not started so it must be assumed that the Elephant mounting was originally intended for anti Zeppelin work.

The Eeman mount did not advance because it proved practically impossible for the pilot to reload in flight and a twin Lewis overwing mount (such as mounted on some 1 ¹/₂Strutter and Camel Comic Cuts) proved sufficiently effective.

[John(txic)]

which like the Vickers Vampire of the late 1940s was a twin boom pusher (albeit with a piston engine!).

Geoffrey deHavilland would be quite upset about this...........

[TonyE]

Geoffrey deHavilland would be quite upset about this...........

You beat me to it...

Perhaps he would respond with Venom?

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

ooohps -my mistake - no need to be vixenish about it.