1/4 Kings Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment)

[robmill]

First post on here so be gentle with me...

I'm trying to find out a bit about my Grandfather's service in WW1. His name was Leslie M Garner and according to his medal card he was a private in 1/4 RLR (41659) and later the Loyal North Lancs (43870). I don't have any record of when he joined up but his DOB was 12/8/1899. I have a photo of him taken in Uccle, Brussels on 20 Feb 1919 with a dozen or so other soldiers, some of whom had also previously been in the RLR. The medal rolls appear to be it as far as any service record goes.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for some history of the 1/4 RLR in 1917/18/19? Apparently my Grandfather was in hospital around Armistice, possibly as a result of gas. Is it possible to find out when and where that might have happened? I'm also curious as to why so many were transferred across to the LNLR, and which battalion he might have gone into.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Rob

[RFT]

Hello Rob and welcome to the GWF.

I placed a similar request concerning the 1/4 Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment a week or two ago.

You may like to contact the KOR Regiment Museum who can supply a CD on the history of the 1/4.

PM me and I will supply address and tel no.

Rob

[Northern Soul]

There's quite a bit of speculation on my part here so please don't take it as gospel. However, I would say he was originally conscripted into the King's Own in mid-1917, posted to the 3rd Bn. for training in the UK and then got sent to France in early 1918, being posted to the 1st/4th Bn. from the Infantry Base Depot in France (most likely Etaples).

When he was transferred to the Loyals is anyone's guess. I have never seen a reference in the 1st/4th K.O. War Diary to a mass transfer of men to the Loyals but I will have another look tonight. To identify which Battalion of the Loyals he was transferred to you would need to consult the Medal Rolls at the National Archives although, since you have a photo of him at Uccle then either the 1/4th or 1st/5th Bns. Loyals would suggest themselves as the 55th (West Lancs Division) was there in early-1919.

It would be nice if you could post a scan of the phograph and names of the men on it.

If you would like copies of the War Diary for 1918-19 please send me a PM with your enmail address.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[robmill]

Andy,

Thanks for all the info - PM is on its way. I'll post up a copy of the photo later along with the names - he recorded these on the back and I've been able to identify a few of them via the online medal cards.

Rob

[robmill]

This is the photo I have, dated 20 Feb 1919 and labelled as Villa Asselburgs, Rue de Forest, Uccle, Nr Brussels

Names on the back:

Sgt Dobbs

L/Cpl Hodgson

L/Cpl W Thistlethwaite (1/4 KORL 242445, LNL 43905)

Pte Starkie

Pte Barlow (poss 1/4 KORL 40961, LNL 43854

Pte Chapman

Pte F Hoey (1/4 RLR 40909, LNL 43845)

Pte J Wright

Pte F? Kay (poss 1/5 LNL 44272)

Pte Taylor

Pte R Goldsmith

Pte L Garner (1/4 KORL 41659, LNL 43870)

Mamma

Joseph

Leslie Garner is second from left in the back row.

I did some cross-referencing of numbers and names on the NA and CWGC sites for the regimental numbers around KORL 41659 and found Pte Fred Wilkinson (1st/4th KORL 41661) who died on 25/08/18 and is buried at Pernes Cemetery. Maybe this gives a clue as to where Leslie Garner served?

[Northern Soul]

Hi Rob, great photo.

Your inbox should be brimming with war diary extracts by now!!

I've done a bit of searching to try and pin your granfather's service and the first thing to say is - ignore everything i posted above becasue it's total garbage.

To try and do it systematically I have attempted to identify everyone in the near number bloc to your grandfather. These men are:

41637 – Reginald B Seaton 8/KO

41640 – Sidney T Day 8/KO

41641 – Stanley H Denny 8/KO

41644 – Edgar G Guy 1/KO

41645 – Clarence Fearnley 1/KO

41646 – Herbert Reeve 1/KO

41652 – Fred Bell 1/KO

41653 – David Hardy 1/KO

41654 – Harry James 1/4 KO

41655 – John Hirst 1/4 KO

41656 - David Jackson 1/4 KO (later RAMC)

41659 – LESLIE GARNER 1/4 KO (later LNL)

41660 – John Croft 1/4 KO

41663 – George Jackson 1/4 KO

41666 – Herbert G Tatman 1/4 KO

41667 – Herbert S Hill 1/4 KO

41669 – Howard Ince 1/4 KO

41671 – John Parker 1/4 KO

41674 – Levison J Manifold 1/5 KO

41675 – Noah Bellaby 1/5 KO

41676 – George W Thompson 1/5 KO

Where numbers are missing from the sequence the men never went abroad. You'll see how they are allocated to different battalions but the number sequences are not mixed up. Therefore we are looking for a draft of 10 'other ranks' received in France by the 1/4 KO. This happened on the 7th July, 1918 as you can see in the attached photo of a page from the War Diary.

I have confirmed this by identifying the Service Records of Ptes. Jackson and Ince: both show that they joined the 1/4 KO on 7/7/18. The records also both show that they arrived in France at the Infantry Base Depot on 5/5/17, having made the crossing Dover to Calais the same day. i.e. they were only at Etaples a couple of days before being posted to join the battalion in the field.

I'm still trying to precisely tie down his service in the UK but basically I he enlisted in late Summer, 1917 and was posted to the 13th Training Reserve Battalion (part of the 3rd Reserve Brigade). This was based at Rugeley and on 27/10/1917 was redesignated the 53rd (Young Soldier) Battalion of the Notts and Derby Regiment (Sherwood Foresters). From there he was identified as suitable for overseas service, transferred to the King's Own (in an administrative sense), renumbered and then shipped out to France. He would have arrived in France badged to the King's Own but unassigned to a particualar battalion - his allocation to the 1st/4th Battalion would have been done at Etaples.

As to when he transferred to the Loyals I am still unclear (and until next week i don't have time to try and resolve it). However, it is a very distinct possibility that he did all his war service with the 1/4 KO and was only transferred to the Loyals after the Armistice. The reason I say this is that there is no mention at all of any transfers out of the battalion in the War Diary and they were always badly under strength so it is difficult to understand why they should have given men up. More likely is that come the Armistice, a lot of the true TF men were eligible to go home and the numbers in the various battalions of the 55th (West Lancs) Division's brigades (all Territorials) were augmented by transferring conscripted men (who were not necessarily eligible for early release) to spread them equally and even out the numbers.

More will follow info if and when I manage to work it out.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[robmill]

Andy,

This is all fantastic information - many, many thanks. It also helps to explain the following photo, which shows him (far right, back row) sporting the cap badge of the Notts & Derby regiment.

More to follow,

Rob

[daggers]

There are magicians on this Forum who might fix that tear in the photo - I thought it was a dead parrot at first glance. Two nice pics and it is good to see relatively carefree soldiers for a change.

D

[robmill]

I identified the service record of Leonard Holroyd, 241700 KORL who transferred to LNLR 43902. His record shows he transferred to 1/12 LNLR on 24/02/18. I then looked up the diary entry for the same day which is as follows:

So it looks as though he might have been part of the army of occupation. Holroyd was demobbed on 28/09/18 so I guess my grandfather might also have come home around the same time.

Interestingly, on The Long, Long Trail the 1/12 is identified as the Pioneer battalion for the LNLR. A photograph of my grandfather in uniform taken after the war shows him wearing the collar insignia of the Pioneers.

Many thanks again for all your help with this.

Rob

[robmill]

Andy,

Do you know if any of the other 9 men who were posted to 1/4 battalion appear on the casualty lists? I searched for each of them on the CWGC and found none of them. Sadly, of the other names listed, Reginald Seaton, Sidney Day, Edgar Guy, David Hardy and Noah Bellaby were all killed in the last 3 months of the war.

Rob

[barry73]

Hi Everyone,

Just been reading through this thread with great interest. Recently my father died and he passed onto me his fathers 1st world war memorabilia - dog tag, transfer to reserve certificate, protection certificate, a small patch of cloth with embroidered rose on it & some other bits and pieces.

I have a photo of my granfather in Essex Yeomanry uniform so am a bit unsure of when he was in the KORLR?? I'd love to find out so I can read up on the regiments exploits while he was with them.

(Hopping Northern Soul - Andy can do his magic for me )

Details are:- William George Moore Enlisted 29/11/1916 into Essex Yeomanry D.O.B 1899 Regiment No.41059 1/4th The Kings own Royal Lancaster Regt, was in Dover 31/1/1919, reserves 28/2/1919.

I know he was gassed on 2 occations, so I'm woundering if it was around the time of the Hindenburg line assult?? Would the Essex Yeomanry have been in close proximity to the 1/4th KOLR??

I've added a letter from Major Jeudwine in the field 3/01/1919 Hope it's of intrest to you.PS Sorry letter is too big for download - just pm me with email address and I will send.

Thanks for your help & Best Wishes,

Barry

[David_Blanchard]

Just wondering anyone/ kind soul in the 1/5 Kings Own would have a look at  the service of Lieutenant Colonel Rupert Anderson-Morshead and his service in the Bn both as CO and before- details of actions he was involved in etc.

I researching for a book on 2 Devons in the Bois de Buttes where he was killed and would like to build up a picture of him during Great War as a whole.

 

Thanks 

 

David 

[Ian Riley]

The Lion and the Rose: 1/5th Bn The King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 1914-1919 by Kevin Shannon

 

I thought I had some notes but I can't find them at the moment.

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks just ordered book