RGA 24th HB Gunner John Swinburne MM

[Shinbone]

Hi all.

I have posted on another Site but got no replies as yet, but looking at this Forum there seems to be a lot of expertise, so I am hopeful someone can help.

Like so many other people I am posting on this Forum to try and find out some information about my Grandfather and where he was killed in the Great War.

My father who was born in June 1918 never new his dad as he did not returned from the war, he had no personal belongings from his dad. These are the facts I know his name was John Robert Swinburne born 1878 Trimdon Durham, I believe he was a coal miner until the start of the war. He was married April 1918 lived in a house Southsea/ Clarence Barracks, his Medal Card states he was a gunner 24^th HB RGA Reg No 10713, Qualifying Date 9/9/14, Action taken Cltr w? 1496/3d, Clasp/2/3479?, Acting Corporal, he has all 3 Medals, also he has MM under his name does this mean he was awarded a Military Medal?. These are my uestions:-

· Did he come home on leave to get married.

· Why did he not join a local regiment (Durham)

· What battle could he have died in after April 1918.

I have not found a Death Certificate in Family Records, no record in Commonwealth War Graves, been to Kew no information in the WO363 and pensions series, there is no proof he actually died in the War.

Many thanks hope you can help. See attached Medal Card.

Dave

[kevinrowlinson]

Hi Dave,

I cannot see that he did die during the war. His MM was gazetted in June 1919 while Acting Corporal. http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar= , where his residence is put down as Plymouth, perhaps while serving at the Citadel, one of the RGA Depots.

His number could indicate two possible enlistment dates, but I am inclined towards the one around March 1902. He may have been recalled from the reserve the first week or two at the outbreak of war and sent to the 24th Heavy Battery as an experienced gunner. Sometime during the war he may have returned wounded but did not return, either because of his medical catagory or he was needed to train new gunners, so may have been in England for a couple of years before marrying.

Do you have his other MIC? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

Did you get his number and regiment from your fathers birth certificate?

Kevin

EDIT

Thinking about it, didn't the MM have to be awarded for action in the field, or could they be awarded for previous work done and not recognised at the time?

[John_Hartley]

Dave

Welcome to the Forum.

If he did die during the latter part of the war, then it must have been at home, as there's no death certificate in the GRO Overseas Deaths list.

John

[Shinbone]

Hi Dave,

I cannot see that he did die during the war. His MM was gazetted in June 1919 while Acting Corporal. http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar= , where his residence is put down as Plymouth, perhaps while serving at the Citadel, one of the RGA Depots.

His number could indicate two possible enlistment dates, but I am inclined towards the one around March 1902. He may have been recalled from the reserve the first week or two at the outbreak of war and sent to the 24th Heavy Battery as an experienced gunner. Sometime during the war he may have returned wounded but did not return, either because of his medical catagory or he was needed to train new gunners, so may have been in England for a couple of years before marrying.

Do you have his other MIC? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

Did you get his number and regiment from your fathers birth certificate?

Kevin

Hi Kevrow,

The only real facts are on the Marrige certificate, Gunner RGA Clarence Barracks Portsmouth,also Engine Fitter, 49 Wisborough Rd Southsea, when I looked up the Medal Card he was the only John Swinburne I could find, have I matched this up wrong? Going back through family history he was a coal miner in Durham.

[Shinbone]

Hi Kevrow,

The only real facts are on the Marrige certificate, Gunner RGA Clarence Barracks Portsmouth,also Engine Fitter, 49 Wisborough Rd Southsea, when I looked up the Medal Card he was the only John Swinburne I could find, have I matched this up wrong? Going back through family history he was a coal miner in Durham.

Of course the other fact is he did not return home, dead or alive, thats as far as my dad new.

Dave

[kevinrowlinson]

Hi Dave,

Unfortunately there is no real evidence that your grandfather was Gnr. 10713 Swinburne. There are so many possibities. He may enlisted under his other name, such as Robert http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=6 ,although this one is unlikely. He may even have been transferred later in the war and the RGA not recorded, again I would have thought unlikely, such as http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 .

Makes you think that married life was not for him and he booked passage after the war to one of the colonies, where he died.

Kevin

[Shinbone]

Hi Dave,

Unfortunately there is no real evidence that your grandfather was Gnr. 10713 Swinburne. There are so many possibities. He may enlisted under his other name, such as Robert http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=6 ,although this one is unlikely. He may even have been transferred later in the war and the RGA not recorded, again I would have thought unlikely, such as http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 .

Makes you think that married life was not for him and he booked passage after the war to one of the colonies, where he died.

Kevin

Kevin and John,

Are all WW1 deaths recorded by the CWGC, also is there any military documentation that links a soldier to his next of kin, in this case his Farther was George Swinburne that would prove I have got the right person on the Medal roll. Yes he may have bunked off at the end of the war and my dad's mother kept it from him, not the sort of thing to be associated with in those days.

Dave

[kevinrowlinson]

Quote, "Are all WW1 deaths recorded by the CWGC" Should be.

Quote, "military documentation that links a soldier to his next of kin" His service records if they survived.

Perhaps he was mentioned in a local paper, either Portsmouth or Plymouth, when he was given the MM.

Kevin

[rflory]

Serjeant John Swinburne served throughout the war with 24th Heavy Battery, RGA and was still alive in May 1919. If you would like to know something about the 24th Heavy Battery, RGA you need to obtain a copy of With the Heavies in Flanders: A Record of the Active Service of the 24th Heavy Battery R.G.A. by Harold F. Berinner. Swinburne is mentioned on three occasions in the text:

Page 141: "The following is a list of honours gained in addition to those mentioned on page 83:

[13 names listed including: "Corporal J. Swinburne, MM"]

Page 142: "It does not serve to enlarge on each incident connected with these awards, but without any invidious distinction mention might be mad of the excellent work as linesmen of Gunner S. Swindells and Corporal J. Swinburne."

Page 143: "Finally Bonn [Germany] was left on May 19th, 1919, after a stay of six days in Antwerp, Acting Captain S. T. Bennell, DCM and 23 other ranks landed at Tilbury on May 20th. Out of this party there were eleven other ranks besides Mr. Bennell who had left England with the battery some four years and eight months previously. The members were as follows: [11 names listed including: Sergeant J. Swinburne, M.M.]

Regards, Dick Flory

[Shinbone]

Serjeant John Swinburne served throughout the war with 24th Heavy Battery, RGA and was still alive in May 1919. If you would like to know something about the 24th Heavy Battery, RGA you need to obtain a copy of With the Heavies in Flanders: A Record of the Active Service of the 24th Heavy Battery R.G.A. by Harold F. Berinner. Swinburne is mentioned on three occasions in the text:

Page 141: "The following is a list of honours gained in addition to those mentioned on page 83:

[13 names listed including: "Corporal J. Swinburne, MM"]

Page 142: "It does not serve to enlarge on each incident connected with these awards, but without any invidious distinction mention might be mad of the excellent work as linesmen of Gunner S. Swindells and Corporal J. Swinburne."

Page 143: "Finally Bonn [Germany] was left on May 19th, 1919, after a stay of six days in Antwerp, Acting Captain S. T. Bennell, DCM and 23 other ranks landed at Tilbury on May 20th. Out of this party there were eleven other ranks besides Mr. Bennell who had left England with the battery some four years and eight months previously. The members were as follows: [11 names listed including: Sergeant J. Swinburne, M.M.]

Regards, Dick Flory

Dick,

Many thanks for finding out this information, I would really like to believe this is my Grandfather John Swinburne who was a soldier in the RGA, marrige cert April 1918 shows an address in Southsea, also mentions Clarence Barracks, but without a service record showing next of kin I can not be 100% sure.

Regards

Dave

[rflory]

The London Gazette notice of his MM indicates that John Swinburne was from Plymouth. Regards, Dick Flory

[caroloross]

Hi, I am new to this site and am researching my g.grandfather James Hayes. He served with the 24th Heavy Battery also and at the moment, I am waiting for a copy of the book mentioned, by Harold Berdinner from my library, though they are taking ages trying to get it.

I have James' medal card and it says that the campaign was 1914, qualifying date also 9/9/1914. Gunner 17377, during which, he earned a Victory, British and 14 Star medal. It says his present situation is R.E, Pioneer 251658. Action taken says he was transferred and it says SWB list RE (could be RB) 3475.

Does this mean that he was injured whilst in the RGA and was injured/sick, then transferred to RE or does it mean that he was injured/sick whilst in the RE.

My Uncle paid for a search to be done at the NA, but they didn't come up with any more info than I already had and they said that they couldn't find him on the SWB list.

I am desperate to find out more about him, family stories vary from him running away after the war to him having 'died at sea'. Can't find records at all. I know that when his last child was born in January 1919, he is on the birth certificate as being a Private (general labourer) in the Royal Engineers, so I assume he was still alive then. I couldn't find a pension for him. I'd be grateful if you could help or point me in the right direction!

Thanks, Carol

[Shinbone]

I cant believe it was 2008 I asked a question on this Forum regarding John Robert Swinburne.
But now I no the truth of what happened to him, while looking  in the British Newspaper Archive for another relative I searched for John Robert Swinburne and to my amazement the name appeared .
He was in the RGA as stated in the original post, however his name was Robert Swinburne he married my Grandmother in April 1918 but he was already married with a wife and children in Usworth Co Durham. I am not sure how he was found out, he did have a brother John Swinburne he was a coal miner.
The artical in the Newspaper Archive (which I need to find again) stated he was a long serving soldier serving in 2 Bore Wars, in 1916 he was wounded and sent back to the uk and spent quiet a long time at a Military Hospital near Liverpool, he met my Grandmother while in Southsea. 
He was convicted of bigamy and ordered to pay 6p a week for the upbringing of my dad.
He may have died in 1937.
If any one can give any more information on Robert Swinburne military service I would be a great help.

[kevinrowlinson]

Dave,

 

I suspect your relative may be S/R 1544/276544 Robert Swinburne. Some of his records have survived and can be found on FMP, and presumably Ancestry, at https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007302732%2F01148&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7302732%2F117%2F1148 . No unit is mentioned but his MIC indicates he went out in 1915. His number indicates he enlisted as a time expired ex gunner as a Special Reservist for 1 year, later to become duration of war.

 

Kevin

 

Edit. Far more detailed records are available if you use Robert Swinbourne. The clue came from the top his MIC. https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=998&firstname=robert&firstname_variants=true&lastname=swinbourne&regiment=royal+garrison+artillery&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain . You can discount the ASC casualty. 

Edited 20 November , 2020 by kevinrowlinson

[Ivor Anderson]

His MM Index Card - currently free from TNA (ref. WO-372-23-172919) shows that he earned it in France. The LG (no. 63) of 17 June 1919 were awards for September-October 1918 (source Bates & Williamson). His MM schedule no. 222179 is in the middle of that Gazette range of 220000 to 225000, so his may be for late September or early October during the final push for victory.

 

Edited 20 November , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Shinbone]

Kevin,

Many  thanks for the information you provided.

 

Dave

[Shinbone]

4 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

His MM Index Card - currently free from TNA (ref. WO-372-23-172919) shows that he earned it in France. The LG (no. 63) of 17 June 1919 were awards for September-October 1918 (source Bates & Williamson). His MM schedule no. 222179 is in the middle of that Gazette range of 220000 to 225000, so his may be for late September or early October during the final push for victory.

 

Ivor, Thanks for the info, but John was his alias, his real name is Robert Swinburne RGA 276544 see above post.

 

Dave Swinburne

[Ivor Anderson]

Ah, sorry, missed that! His war medal and silver war badge records (off Ancestry) give his unit as 21st Heavy Battery RGA and enlistment in August 1914:

There is a thread on 21 Heavy Battery on the GWF: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/114311-21st-heavy-battery-rga/

 

 

Edited 20 November , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Shinbone]

Ivor, thanks again, Robert was naughty boy but I suppose these things happen during a conflict and with paper records not so easy to get found out.

 

Regards Dave 

[Ivor Anderson]

His full WW1 service record on Ancestry shows he was from Unsworth: 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/31238_200975-00246?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=1939712

 

Edited 20 November , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Shinbone]

Ivor,

This confirms Robert is my Grandfather as I know he was born in Usworth, and from the article in the Tonbridge Gazette dated 1918 when he was in court for bigamy it stated  he was in the RGA and wounded in 1916 and come back to his unit by 1918. From another thread I found a photo of the 21HB and a soldier middle row 4th from the right looks a spitting image of my dad, it could be him?

Thanks again

Dave

[sadbrewer]

I hope there might be some new details for you here.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive 

 

 

 

Then from July 1924.

 

 

Edited 20 November , 2020 by sadbrewer

[Shinbone]

Ivor, there is another article I have seen that follows on from the one above, this goes into more detail and said he served in 2 boer wars, seems he was in and out of the army, he was an old soldier at 48 at the end of WW1.

 

Many thanks for your time.

Dave

[Ivor Anderson]

Date of wedding in that bigamy newspaper report matches the service record on Ancestry and confirms it is him:

 

Edited 20 November , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[sadbrewer]

29 minutes ago, Shinbone said:

Ivor, there is another article I have seen that follows on from the one above, this goes into more detail and said he served in 2 boer wars, seems he was in and out of the army, he was an old soldier at 48 at the end of WW1.

 

Many thanks for your time.

Dave

 

Dave, I found one that may be interesting...an article from 1902 (ish) with a Sunderland man, Robert Swinburn RGA in a paternity case in Kent ....don't know how likely it is to be the same man.

 

Edit,,,having just seen Ivor's post above it sounds highly possible.

 

 

Edit 2....the follow up article says he was brought back from Sunderland to answer a case of not supporting his wife...the magistrates accepted they were not married.

Edited 20 November , 2020 by sadbrewer