Is WW1 ammunition really still dangerous?

[bierlijn]

I was watching a Belgian documentary on discovered bodies of Austrialian soldiers, and one of De Diggers was featured, showing the camera pieces of dug up ordinance lying in the field, and chipping energetically at the mud covering them while saying how dangerous they still were. And I wondered if they really were, or if time and moisture has rotted the contents into an inert mass.

I realise that intact gas shells are still lethal, but is it really likely that these items, most of them originally probably duds, would still explode? If chipped at with a trowel?

Hugh

[Pete1052]

Some of the old ordnance will still explode--at first glance it's hard for even the experts to know the difference between the ones that might go off and the ones that won't.

[AlanCurragh]

Quite a few people are killed every year by unexploded shells, so absolutely, stay well clear of them!

Alan

[bierlijn]

I watched a Belgian farmer digging a hole near Mesen with a JCB, and he'd made a pile of the unexploded shells. He didn't seem too bothered by them. But maybe it was a rental.

[Garron]

Theres plenty of threads on this topic,

Every single one says; YES they are!

Gaz

[centurion]

Theres plenty of threads on this topic,

Every single one says; YES they are!

Can you explode?

Yes we can. oh BAMM ....a

An Uncle of mine spent part of his RAF career supervising the disposal of WW2 ordinance. He could quote plenty of instances of old shells and bombs going off - men died. The explosive does not rot - it crystallizes and becomes much more sensitive so you don't need a detonator any more.

[T8HANTS]

The odd idiot gets killed by tampering with American Civil War munitions each year, so draw your own conclusion.

[PGL]

An Uncle of mine spent part of his RAF career supervising the disposal of WW2 ordinance. He could quote plenty of instances of old shells and bombs going off - men died. The explosive does not rot - it crystallizes and becomes much more sensitive so you don't need a detonator any more.

Quite right. The explosive reacts with the metal casing forming very sensitive metal salts which in effect can turn the whole thing into one very large and very sensitive detonator. That's why shells used to be varnished on the inside to stop the formation of these metal salts during normal storage. That's one reason why ammunition is "rotated" in stockpile.

There is another reason though. A properly designed explosive device will only function under very strict conditions. For instance, it must not explode when handled, loaded or being subjected to the stresses of firing. It must then explode when it reaches it's target (or just above or below/behind it). This is sometimes quite a contradiction in terms and usually involves some sort or safety device which only comes into (or more properly, out of) play when the shell is fired. A lot of these safety devices are small metal pins. For some reason, if a safety pin isn't made to withdraw during the firing process, the shell ends up a "dud". Ninety years later and corrosion can erode these safety pins "arming" the fuse and resulting in a very, very uncertain and dangerous situation - in effect a 90 year time delay.

Even these days with modern ammunition technology, if a round is fired and it turns out to be a "dud", it's destroyed immediately and not left lying around.

Just because it didn't go off when it was fired doesn't mean that it won't ever go off.

[bierlijn]

How does this affect farming in the area? Surely if the munitions were this dangerous, ploughing would be impossible.

[Pete1052]

I watched a Belgian farmer digging a hole near Mesen with a JCB, and he'd made a pile of the unexploded shells. He didn't seem too bothered by them.

How does this affect farming in the area? Surely if the munitions were this dangerous, ploughing would be impossible.

You answered your own question. Farmers and other people whose jobs require them to dig in the ground, such as those in the construction trade, do what they have to do to earn their livings. The smarter ones among them will only handle the unexploded ordnance that they find as little as is necessary in order to get the job done. It's easier for those of us who only visit battlefields as tourists not to touch the things because there's no great need for us to do so.

[dutchbarge]

The odd idiot gets killed by tampering with American Civil War munitions each year, so draw your own conclusion.

Are you pulling our leg or does this really happen? I've never heard anything about this! Cheers, Bill

[dutchbarge]

How does this affect farming in the area? Surely if the munitions were this dangerous, ploughing would be impossible.

I've heard of farmers using metal detectors before plowing or harvesting. I've even read of armor plates being used on tractors. On my first visit to Ypres over 25 years ago I was invited by a Belgian shopkeeper to join him on a visit to disabled WW1 veteran. Turns out the 'veteran' was an 18 year old farmer's son who had run his tractor over UXO. I was told that he recieved pension from Germany for his disability. Point is the the UXO is still maiming and killing. Cheers, BIll

[dutchbarge]

Just because it didn't go off when it was fired doesn't mean that it won't ever go off.

The deminers say that all UXO has a 'secret'. What they mean is that there is an unknown reason the ordnance did not detonate. As you say, just because it hasn't gone bang, doesn't mean that it won't give up it's secret if pressed. Cheers, BIll

[Pete1052]

ATF determines spark set off Civil War-era shell

A Virginia collector died in February when the naval shell he was cleaning exploded

Associated Press

August 12, 2008

RICHMOND -- A Civil War relic hunter killed in an explosion in February was cleaning a cannonball when a spark ignited black powder within the ancient ordnance, a federal investigation concluded Monday.

Sam White, 53, was working on the 9-inch naval cannonball in the driveway of his suburban home with a wire-brush grinder, which ignited the powder, exploding the shell, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives investigation.

A 4-inch piece of shrapnel dug from the asphalt of the driveway contained evidence that the shell had been made inert, either by White or the person who sold him the shell, said Bill Dunham, resident agent in charge of the Richmond ATF office.

But naval shells were built to shield the powder from water and other elements, so all of the cannonball's 3 or 4 pounds of black powder were not thoroughly flushed from the shell's casing, Dunham said.

The explosion sent a 1- or 2-pound section of the shell hurtling from the Chester subdivision where White lived and through the roof of a house a quarter of a mile away. No one else was injured in the Feb. 18 explosion.

Dunham said the investigation did not determine whether White had flushed the shell with water or if he had purchased the shell as inert. "I don't see any criminal responsibility," he said.

White, a respected, widely known member of the Civil War relic hunting community, was using the grinder to clean off residue from the shell, which dated to the 1850s or 1860s. In published accounts before his death, White estimated he had worked on 1,600 shells for collectors and museums.

Brenda White said she has "absolutely no clue" where her husband obtained the shell.

"As far as I'm concerned, Sam did nothing wrong and was doing what he loved and it was one of those freaky, horrific accidents," White wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

White's death rocked the passionate fraternity of Civil War collectors and relic hunters, who search trash pits and river bottoms for munitions, clothing and buttons. They fear White's death has inspired officials to destroy any cannonballs that are found.

Explosives experts said White's death was an extraordinary event and one rarely recorded since the end of the Civil War. But a U.S. Army explosives expert strongly disagreed that munitions from that period are not dangerous.

"My position is that these old cannonballs, and any cannonball that has an energetic filler, is dangerous and potentially unstable," said Jimmy Langley, an explosives and toxic chemical agent safety specialist with the U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosives Safety in Oklahoma.

Dunham said 43 shells were taken from White's home after the explosion and flushed of powder.

[PGL]

Are you pulling our leg or does this really happen? I've never heard anything about this! Cheers, Bill

I can't find the exact passage at the moment but I can remember reading an account by "Gunner" Ian Hogg (a very well respected expert in his field and not the sort of man to invent stories) of an American who lived near an old Civil War battlefield. He found a cannonball and gave it a coat of paint. A couple of years later, he changed the decor and decided to repaint the cannonball to match. He began by stripping the old paint with a blowtorch and discovered that the cannonball wasn't solid shot but a shell filled with gunpowder. Like Ian Hogg said, "That's the sort of mistake you only make once".

I can also remember an account of a bomb suddenly exploding in a field, killing a couple of sheep. The owner had heard a low flying aircraft one night about twenty years previously and found a hole in the ground the next morning. He thought the sensible thing to do was fill it in and he subsequently forgot about it until he heard the bang, saw the crater and found the dead livestock. That was when he realised that the hole he filled in all those years previously had been caused by an unexploded bomb that buried itself on impact and "waited" 20 years before it went off.

Although it was a WW2 aerial bomb (and this is a WW1 forum), the important point is that there was no apparent reason for that bomb suddenly to detonate when it did. Why didn't it explode ten years before or ten years later? Why, indeed, didn't it explode on impact?

Nobody knows, something totally unpredictable happened and the best advice is don't ever touch old ammunition. Like Gunner Hogg said, it's something you might only get to do once.

[Gunner Bailey]

Hugh

See my thread 'Only a doorstop' in Battlefields in Danger

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=78182

Lots of stories in there.

Gunner Bailey

[auchonvillerssomme]

John, that was an exhausting thread, I forgot you started it.

Mick

[Stephen Barker]

At Locre in October 2007, heard a loud bang while visiting Locre Hospice Cemetery.

A villager had been killed in his garden from one of a stockpile of shells that he had gethered.

Locre was several miles behind the line.

Stephen

[melwar]

I spoke to a professor at Lille University while at Pozieres one day and he told me the Flanders region had the only armour plated beet-washing machines in the world! And apparently they are worth it several times a year. The harvesting machines for the beets obviously can't tell the difference between beets and live ordnance, which can make it a long way down the line before going off.

Have also seen 90 year old .303 rounds which create a lovely burst of flame if cracked open and lit.

[J T Gray]

Have also seen 90 year old .303 rounds which create a lovely burst of flame if cracked open and lit.

Not forgetting the Gallipoli documentary (the one likening it to the first D-Day, I think) where a diver demonstrated that cordite bought up from one of the warships sunk in the straits in 1915 would still burn, fresh out of the water...

It will be a long, long time before WW1 claims its last victim...

Adrian

[George Armstrong Custer]

What's really dangerous is that there are apparently still people out there for whom the answer to the question posed by this thread isn't obvious.

[egbert]

Turns out the 'veteran' was an 18 year old farmer's son who had run his tractor over UXO. I was told that he recieved pension from Germany for his disability..... Cheers, BIll

I tend to put this story into the fairytale drawer. Allied bombs still explode in Germany killing citizen and vice versa in the UK, France etc. From a legal standpoint no government requires to pay for UXO damages from WW1or 2

[auchonvillerssomme]

I spoke to a professor at Lille University while at Pozieres one day and he told me the Flanders region had the only armour plated beet-washing machines in the world! And apparently they are worth it several times a year. The harvesting machines for the beets obviously can't tell the difference between beets and live ordnance, which can make it a long way down the line before going off.

Have also seen 90 year old .303 rounds which create a lovely burst of flame if cracked open and lit.

Well they must be a brave lot round here on the Somme because these are the common off the shelf variety of machinery. I will go next door and make enquiries about explosions, but the only comments I've heard here are from a farmer whose uncle was injured when his horse threw him after it trod on a bullet and it exploded. Plenty of anectdotal stuff but mainly from British visitors.

[centurion]

Those of you who watched the very recent BBC series on celebrities tracing their ancestors war service (and whose short term memory has not yet ceased to function) will remember the interview with the Belgian specialist entasked with disposing of WW1 munitions in which he pointed out that a colleague had been killed days before - and he was an expert handler of such material.

There was in the inter war years a high casualty rate amongst farmers in the old battle zones. Some of this was from unmarked British anti tank mine fields made up of buried toffee apple rounds with a special contact fuse. Wouldn't go off if you walked over them but the pressure of a tractor or plough would set them off.

Older black powder munitions are a little different. Good quality 'corned and varnished' powder if kept dry does not deteriorate, however unlike well aged 'modern' explosive it is not susceptible to knocks and blows unless these create a spark in the wrong place. Applying a blow torch is different and actually slightly more dangerous with black powder.

Care should always be taken with old muzzle loading weapons, remember it was very difficult to unload a muzzle loading rifled weapon once the ball was rammed down so many got left loaded. The last words of many an incautious handler as they peered down the barrel have been something like "oh look after all these years the trigger still wor....."

[bierlijn]

At this point I should declare an interest then, as I need advice. I have bought a farm which was heavily shelled for the duration of the war. As far as we know, this farm has been cow pasture land for the entire post war period. We intend to convert this to arable land in the near future. This means disturbing the topsoil. I'm hoping to stay alive during the process. Any tips from experts in this field would be appreciated (no pun intended).