CWGC sites in WWII

[Salfordian]

During the occupation of Europe in WWII by the Nazis who maintain the CWGC sites in places like France and Belgium? Was it the German Army under respect of the a fellow soldier or did the Nazis allow the locals to maintain them?

[Jim Strawbridge]

What makes you think that they were maintained? The CWGC would maintain if they were able (remember that they are an international organisation without political or religious leanings) but also man power may have been short anyway if employees called up for war. Also their funding may have been limited if the participating countries were funding a war. My guess is that those in threatened areas were left and brought back to standard as circumstances allowed. Terry may have the answer.

[AlanCurragh]

Isn't there a story about the gardener at Serre being retained to look after the various cemeteries there, while also helping escaping Allied airmen? Here is a similar question from the early days of the forum, with the Serre gardener mentioned -

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...?showtopic=6316

Alan

[egbert]

My father took some pictures of CWGC Merville during the occupation. They may be viewed in the thread referenced in my signature. Here is a central view:

[Salfordian]

What makes you think that they were maintained? The CWGC would maintain if they were able (remember that they are an international organisation without political or religious leanings) but also man power may have been short anyway if employees called up for war. Also their funding may have been limited if the participating countries were funding a war. My guess is that those in threatened areas were left and brought back to standard as circumstances allowed. Terry may have the answer.

Hence my question - what happened to them, maybe I should have been more precise, but I believe the jist of my question was answered by another member later, to which I thank Egbert.

[Borden Battery]

Here is their website. Why not ask them directly. Borden Battery

Commonwealth War Graves Commission

Established by Royal Charter in 1917, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission pays tribute to the 1,700,000 men and women of the Commonwealth forces who died in the two world wars. It is a non-profit-making organization. The "Debt of Honour Register" is the Commission's database listing the 1.7 million men and women of the Commonwealth forces who died during the two world wars and the 23,000 cemeteries, memorials and other locations worldwide where they are commemorated. The register can also be searched for details of the 67,000 Commonwealth civilians who died as a result of enemy action in the Second World War. [CEF Study Group - July 2006]

http://www.cwgc.org/default.asp

[Neil Clark]

I'm afraid to say that many many war memorials and headstones were defaced or destroyed by the Germans when they occupied France and Belgium. I believe the original memorial at Hill 60 was destroyed during this time.

I guess that some of our soldiers would have done the same thing to German monuments too...

Either way it was totally WRONG to interfere with the things.

[Paul Reed]

Neil, do you have a source for "many" British cemeteries and memorials being deliberately damaged or destroyed?

[Neil Clark]

Paul,

I have seen a few ww1 monuments with bullet marks all over them only to be told by the locals that the damage was done by German soldiers in the second scrap! Some large French monuments at Verdun were destroyed in WW2.

I possess the diary of my Grandfather who fought throughout France in WW2 and he states in a few places that some types of German units did not respect British and French war monuments. I believe that he refers to the Waffen SS and other Nazi units NOT the normal German army that would contain a proportion of decent and honourable fighting men.

I take it from your question that you would deny the problem was so widespread? If so, I bow to your vastly superior WW2 knowledge. I won't argue the toss because I know next to nothing about the Second World War (it's just not my thing). I would'nt dare question you as you are one of the very few historians on TV that I listen to and respect.

I'm on the back foot here and you gotten me beaten!

[Paul Reed]

Hi Neil - no, I'm just interested. It is a poorly documented subject, and I am always interested in any accounts of it. There is certainly some WW2 damage to Great War British sites, but so far - from what I can see - most of it was actually caused in the fighting of 1940, rather than by an army of occupation.

[chrisharley9]

Neil

I think that you will find that most of the damage caused to cemeteries memorials was a result of the fighting not the result of wilful vandalism

The Australian Tunneling Memorial at Hill 60 shows some bullet holes; the Menin Gate has some damage (caused by British troops blowing the moat bridge); there was some damage to the Villers Bretoneux Memorial caused by a German air attack on allied troops in the area. The memorials that were destroyed were those that showed the Germans in a bad light.

Chris

[Neil Clark]

Chris, Paul,

I thought the large monument on top of Hill 60 is not the original which was destroyed in WW2 by the Germans?

I GIVE UP!

I was only trying to sound clever....

[Terry Denham]

Very little damage occured to CWGC cemeteries and memorials during WW2. Some were damaged (eg Menin Gate) to various degrees due to actual fighting.

CWGC were unable to maintain them as all their staff had either been evacuated to the UK, gone into hiding or were transported to labour camps by the Germans. There is a good description of this in 'The Unending Vigil' by Philip Longworth. Many staff sadly died during their exile in the camps. There are also enlightening reports in CWGC's Annual Reports of the period.

No formal maintenance was really possible in general but in a few places the locals still did what they could and were largely left alone by the Germans. The real 'damage' was by Mother Nature as the horticulture went wild whilst unattended. There is at least one case of a gardener assisting escaping British airmen while maintaining his cemetery.

There are many stories about Hitler giving orders that the cemeteries were not to be touched but I have not personally seen any written evidence of this. However I tend to believe it.

The CWGC Annual report of 1941 reports the cemeteries/ memorials to be 'undamaged, uncared for'. It also states that arrangements had been made for the existing (Italian) staff to continue to care for the graves in Italy - an arrangement made with the Italian government via the US Embassy.

The 1942 Report states that the French Vichy government had issued orders to all communes in both occupied and unoccupied France that both British and French cemeteries were to be cared for equally and that grants were made for that purpose by Vichy.

The later Reports continue to state that there was no news of major damage. The 1945 Report (post liberation) says that 'it was found that they had on the whole been respected by friend and foe alike' in France and Belgium.

Some non-CWGC memorials were destroyed deliberately including that commemorating the Queen Victoria's Rifles on Hill 60 but the original question referred to CWGC sites.

[Salfordian]

Very little damage occured to CWGC cemeteries and memorials during WW2. Some were damaged (eg Menin Gate) to various degrees due to actual fighting.

CWGC were unable to maintain them as all their staff had either been evacuated to the UK, gone into hiding or were transported to labour camps by the Germans. There is a good description of this in 'The Unending Vigil' by Philip Longworth. Many staff sadly died during their exile in the camps. There are also enlightening reports in CWGC's Annual Reports of the period.

No formal maintenance was really possible in general but in a few places the locals still did what they could and were largely left alone by the Germans. The real 'damage' was by Mother Nature as the horticulture went wild whilst unattended. There is at least one case of a gardener assisting escaping British airmen while maintaining his cemetery.

There are many stories about Hitler giving orders that the cemeteries were not to be touched but I have not personally seen any written evidence of this. However I tend to believe it.

The CWGC Annual report of 1941 reports the cemeteries/ memorials to be 'undamaged, uncared for'. It also states that arrangements had been made for the existing (Italian) staff to continue to care for the graves in Italy - an arrangement made with the Italian government via the US Embassy.

The 1942 Report states that the French Vichy government had issued orders to all communes in both occupied and unoccupied France that both British and French cemeteries were to be cared for equally and that grants were made for that purpose by Vichy.

The later Reports continue to state that there was no news of major damage. The 1945 Report (post liberation) says that 'it was found that they had on the whole been respected by friend and foe alike' in France and Belgium.

Some non-CWGC memorials were destroyed deliberately including that commemorating the Queen Victoria's Rifles on Hill 60 but the original question referred to CWGC sites.

Thank you, Thats what I wanted to know

[CROONAERT]

the Menin Gate has some damage (caused by British troops blowing the moat bridge);

Gosh, this particular memorial and what happened to it in 1940 is getting a fair bit of web-time lately!!!

Some (but probably very little) damage was caused by the RE making the bridge over the moat into a tank-block, but most was caused by the Germans during the action there on May 28th 1940.

A small , very basic, account of the action here for your interest (as posted elsewhere)...

"On the 28th May 1940 the cyclists of the German 18 Aufklärungs-Bataillon came under fire from the Menin Gate (held at that time by 150 Bde AT Coy and elements of the 1/6th S.Staffordshire regiment who had, since the previous day, come under the orders of 150Bde and who had just relieved the 4/East Yorkshire Regiment) whilst heading northwards over the Menin Road crossroads at approx. 14:30 hrs. Fire was returned with the aid of the MG.34s of two SdKfz half-tracks and supported by the guns of Artillerie-Regiment 54, who were just north of Zillebeke lake . After a short period the small arms fire from the front ceased, but there was sporadic artillery fire until about 18:00 hrs mainly ranged on the ramparts and the houses around the Gate. During this artillery fire ( at approx. 17:00 hrs), the bridge over the moat was blown (by Lt.David Smith of 101 Coy.R.E.(Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineers(M)) - this action being one of his accumalitive actions that contributed to his award of the MC) and the defenders withdrawn. The Germans , meanwhile, continued on their way - northwards and on to further actions to the north of the town (in an attempted encirclement manouvre) where other German divisions (254, 14 , 19 and 30th Divisions) were in action along the Yser canal. (14 (and 18 Division - whose troops had been in action at the Menin Gate) - entering the town the following day - the 29th - via the Lille Gate. The men of Inf.Rgt.30 under Oberst von Erdmannsdorff raise the swastika over the Cloth Hall at 11:25am)

).

No British casualties noted in the actual small arms exchange. One German dead and several wounded.

The damage to the front of the gate was caused by this small action - both by German fire - including the obvious holes most likely caused by the 3.7 cm PaK 36 AT gun that was brought up for fire support - and by the British demolition of the bridge. There was an OP behind the lion during the 27th May (and into the morning of the 28th) set up originally by 260 Bty, 65 A.T.Regt R.A. (and shared by the other units manning the Gate), but this had become untennable by mid-morning of the 28th due to small arms fire specifically targetting it (with some (much?) of the fire coming from within the town itself!)."

Dave

[chrisharley9]

Dave

thanks very much for that - dont suppose you know the story behind the QVR memorial at Hill 60

Chris

[CROONAERT]

I'm afraid that I don't, as there appear to be conflicting stories about this (and the damage to the Aussie memorial). The area was heavily fought over in 1940, but whether the damage to the Aussie memorial was caused by this or a resistance action later, I'm unsure. Also, whether the QVR memorial was destroyed/damaged irreparibly in the action (though I can see this being the case considering the severity of the fighting here) or after, I also cannot tell you as they don't get a mention in anything that I have on the events.

I'll post something on the exploits of A Coy of the 2/RSF on here a little later, but, as I've already posted elsewhere of the events that took place over the railway line next door to Hill 60 (6/Seaforths), I'll start off with that...

"On 26th May 1940, the 6/seaforths arrived at St.Eloi (from Templemars) at around 11:00hrs. They had been bombed several times en route and had suffered some casualties due to this. After arriving, they occupied defensive positions just south of Zillebeke (just west of and parallel with the Ypres-Comines railway, facing in a N.Easterly direction). 3 Coys held the front (A on the right, D in the centre and C on the left with B Coy being in reserve) with Bn HQ being in a farm a little behind (map ref.H6058). The battalion frontage was about 2000 yds in length.

A couple of German armoured cars and motorcycle troops appeared during the afternoon soon followed by many troops on bicycles and intermittant shelling. German posts were reported as being set up close to the left flank of the frontage and sniper activity increased towards dusk, with some being reported as being behind the British lines. Nightfall brought much activity and further shelling and the left hand platoon of C coy (under 2/Lt.J.M.Moir) disappeared completely (it later transpired that they had been captured by a German patrol).

With daylight on the 27th May german pressure increased enormously and their mortars and AP weaponry was brought into the fray. casualties were heavy in all forward companies, but especially in A Coy which was reduced to a handful of men commanded by Sgt.F. Stewart - all officers having become casualties. Stewart was later awarded the DCM for his gallantry in this action*. At around 14:00 hours, the battalion was forced to withdraw to the neighbourhood of St.Eloi village where they endured further heavy shelling until nightfall. By this time however, german troops were in close proximity and rifle and MG fire continued into the night. A few troops of the battalion were captured by the germans actually in St.Eloi village, including at least one officer.

Dawn on 28th May was heralded by attacks from dive-bombers, two bombs from which landed very near the RAP which, by this time ,was practically in the frontline. the Germans appeared to have withdrawn slightly during the night and so the artillery began again for a number of hours until the German infantry pushed forward again, working at the gaps in the line between the neighbouring battalions. Eventually, the battalion was surrounded on 3 sides in some depth and so it was decided to withdraw to Wijtschaete which was done under very heavy rifle and LMG fire. The battalion by now was in such a state that it took until nightfall to collect the stragglers and reorganise what was left of the battalion. here the order was given to embus for Moeres. The battalion moved to la Clytte (for tea, biscuits, bully & rum!) where "B" echelon transport had been held and then the night move started on the heavily congested roads......etc...etc.....from then on - destination Dunkirk.

* the place of Sgt.Stewart's action was the easily recognisable feature known in WW1 as "the Dump"."

[CROONAERT]

6/Seaforths in red, 2/RSF in yellow...

[chrisharley9]

Dave

I know the area quite well - there is a small memorial by the railway bridge to some resitance fighters

thanks for the above

Chris

[CROONAERT]

I'll post something on the exploits of A Coy of the 2/RSF on here a little later,

In Brief...27th May 1940...

A Coy, 2/RSF holding the crest of Hill 60 (and also what was once known as "The Caterpillar" across the railway).

At approx. 06:00 hrs, German artillery opened up on the railway and canal lines (Brtish artillery responded in kind) and the troops on Hill 60 came under a heavy mortar bombardment from positions some 3 to 500 yards to the east. Though under heavy fire themselves, the German troops held firm and forced the order to be given for withdrawal to positions back across the canal (to conform with 13 Inf bde to the South who had also been forced to withdraw). As all bar one bridge across the canal had been destroyed this proved difficult. Meanwhile, A Coy on Hill 60 was suffering heavy casualties in attempting to vacate the hill and so Lt.Cholmondeley, in an attempt to cover the withdrawal, took out a fighting patrol to engage the German MG post and mortar positions as located on the above map. Cholmondeley was killed whilst leading his patrol into action against the MG shown above, but his, and his patrol's sacrifice enabled the majority of survivors to escape - though closely pursued and harrassed all the way. By early evening they were in their new positions in the vicinity of the Bluff - still under constant fire - and ... ...further stories that aren't really for this forum (especially seeing as I think that this thread has been hijacked enough!!! )

dave.

[CROONAERT]

(especially seeing as I think that this thread has been hijacked enough!!! )

..Just one more snippet (in relation to my first post on this thread) which may be of interest (sorry! )- an alternative use of Cloth Hall repair materials!...

[ypresman]

My father took some pictures of CWGC Merville during the occupation. They may be viewed in the thread referenced in my signature. Here is a central view:

Vandals.....someone has wrote 'egbert' in the grass with weedkiller...........

[egbert]

Vandals.....someone has wrote 'egbert' in the grass with weedkiller...........

It is believed that the picture police is responsible for that act of vandalism

[Kevin Lynott]

An extract from the CWGC website in the Historical Information section for Valenciennes(St Roch)Communal Cemetery

An interesting feature from the 1939-45 War, is a memorial tablet of white marble affixed to the outside wall of the shelter building, commemorating the Commission's former gardener, the late Robert Armstrong. An ex-Irish Guardsman, Mr. Armstrong held an Eire passport and, as a neutral, was allowed to continue at work in the cemetery after the outbreak of war. His sympathies impelled him to assist Allied soldiers and airmen to escape, and he was arrested by the Germans at the end of 1943. The original death sentence was commuted to 15 years imprisonment, and he was deported to Germany, dying at Waldheim Camp, Saxony, in December, 1944. For his help to Allied escapees he was posthumously awarded the Medaille de Resistance Francaise, and the tablet was a voluntary token of remembrance from the people of Valenciennes and the surrounding district.

[Mostonian]

Dave

I know the area quite well - there is a small memorial by the railway bridge to some resitance fighters

thanks for the above

Chris

I have a bit about them on my website: WW2 memorial