Motherwell: Bros: John Ernest/David/James Quail & Unc James Gemmel

[dfaulder]

>><< You could try the Regimental Museum to see if they have a nominal roll:

>><< I'd imagine that there may be a few experts on the regiment lurking around who might have some input if you make a separate post.

>><< Another tack may be to see who had regimental numbers around his in the Dorsetshire regiment and see if they transferred similarly from a London Bn- if a couple of them were fatalities and their former regiment is listed on "Soldiers Died" then you may have your answer. If you identify his London Bn then looking for men around #1875 will give you a better idea of his likely enlistment date.

>><<

Matthew,

Thanks I have put up a separate post, and will try the regimental museum and, when Geoff's Search Engine recovers, have a dig around other Dorsetshires .

David

[dfaulder]

I am trying to tie up a few loose ends in respect of this family:

William Gemmell Motherwell and Mary (née Peacock)

├── Son: David McKean Motherwell & Catherine (née Carlisle)

│ ├── Son: William Carlisle Motherwell & (Isa)Belle (née Palmer)

│ │ ├── Son: David Motherwell

│ │ └── Dau: Margaret Motherwell

│ ├── Son: John Ernest Motherwell (Capt RIR KIA)

│ ├── Dau: Annie Evelyn (m James Copper McNaught)

│ ├── Dau: Kathleen (m Walter Berwick Templeton)

│ ├── Son: David Motherwell (T/Capt RIR Survived)

│ ├── Dau: Mary Motherwell

│ └── Son: James Quail Motherwell (CQMS RIR Invalided out)

├── Son: William Motherwell

├── Dau: Sophie (m Unknown MacRae) (4 children all deceased)

└── Son: James Gemmell Motherwell (Pte Died Mespot) & Marie Rose (née Hamilton)

1) Middle name for David Motherwell (the Temp Capt). Other members of the family which I have been able to research all have middle names. I know that McKean, Gemmell, and Carlisle are family names. I would imagine that David would not have been denied a middle name! (His MIC only gives the first name).

2) David Motherwell's Service Record. At the National Archives I was advised that since his index number was preceeded by a "P" (No P103598 - possibly P163598), it mean that he served after 1922 and his records would be at the MOD. As I am not the Next of Kin, this blocks my research. However, the website, http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_record..._records.html#5 states that for Army Officers commissioned prior to 1920, the records are at the National Archives and in the public domain. He was commissioned prior to 1920. Any idea where his records might be (and if at the NA) where I look? I am awaiting an answer from MoD as to whether they have his records (leaving the question of access to them to one side).

Edit: Subsequently I have posted the general issue behind (2) above to a separate thread - which reveals David Motherwell's WW2 Service.

TIA

David

[dfaulder]

Update re the possible London Irish link for James Gemmell Motherwell.

FitzroyPC has unearth a note in the Northern Whig of 30 Nov 1917:

Mr. David Motherwell (of Messrs. David Allen & Sons, Ltd., Belfast) has received news of the death from cholera at Bagdad on 18th inst. of his yonger brother, Private James Motherwell, Dorset Regiment, Mesopotamian Expeditionary Force. The deceased, who was forthy years of age, served his apprenticeship with Messrs. Allen in Belfast, and in the opening of the Harrow works was transfered to that establishment, where he acted as assistant manager for a number of years. He afterwards represented the firm in London and Birmingham. At the beginning of the war he joined the London Irish, and was transferred to the Dorsets, with which he served in India and Mesopotamia. His widow lives in Harrow.

I am a little puzzled given his age and pre-war occupation why he was not commissioned (two of his nephews were).

FitzroyPC has also established that David and James Quail Motherwell appear on the Roll of honour for the Royal Belfast Academic Institute.

Thanks to FitzroyPC

David

[dfaulder]

Current Searching regarding this family:

In WED Allen's book David Allen: a family firm 1857-1957, the father of these three brothers (David McKean Motherwell) is mentioned (my italics):

The Motherwell family maintained a long association with David Allen & Sons. Mr R. Motherwell's son David, a former secretary and director of the company, died in Belfast in 1954 at the age of 90. Another son, James, worked for many years at the Harrow printing works. David attended an inspection of Territorial veterans by Queen Elizabeth II in Edinburgh the year before he died and had the honour of being presented to Her Majesty. The other member of the family, William, was for many years cashier at Corporation Street

If David senior was 90 in 1954, I would imagine that his Territorial Association would have been before WW2, and possibly pre WW1.

In researching the brothers and their uncle, I have not come across David McKean Motherwell in association with Military History. I am not sure that the book is totally reliable; for instance DMcKM's father was (from Glasgow census records) a William Gemmell Motherwell. I have tried (without success) searching the Court Circulars on the Times Archive to see if I can find reference to this inspection.

Anyone able to suggest any other sources? Is there a specific Territorial Army Archive?

thanks

David

[dfaulder]

QUOTE (markinbelfast @ Nov 14 2008, 08:00 PM) [/url]>><<

anyway...here's Motherwell Jas. G. 34 Shaftesbury Avenue Private Dorset Regt. Died of Cholera in Baghdad who may well be related

Mark

Well, this is interesting and potentially confusing. Jas = James, but the service record of the James Motherwell which I have already identified contains a letter from David Motherwell snr of David Allen & Sons referring to the three Brothers.

This letter implies that James was medically discharged.

Just wondering, whether the reference to being a brother of David, is actually a reference to being brother of David Motherwell senior (father of my original three brothers) and this James is an Uncle of the James I already know. Yes, check on CWGC says this James (Dorset Regiment) was : Son of William Gemmell Motherwell and Mary Motherwell, of Belfast; husband of Marie Motherwell, of 20, Locket Rd., Wealdstone, Harrow, Middx.

So I think you have indirectly found me the Grandfather of the three (/ four ?) brothers!

Which paper is this from BTW - one of the Belfast ones or a London paper?

Many thanks - you seem to be helping me to identify a military family of some WW1 extent!

David

Update: WED Allen's book David Allens mentions this James and the fact that he featured on a cigarette (BDV) advertising poster. Serendipity has now given be a reference to this poster.

David

[Kerry Motherwell]

On 15/11/2008 at 00:31, dfaulder said:

Mark

Well, this is interesting and potentially confusing. Jas = James, but the service record of the James Motherwell which I have already identified contains a letter from David Motherwell snr of David Allen & Sons referring to the three Brothers.

This letter implies that James was medically discharged.

Just wondering, whether the reference to being a brother of David, is actually a reference to being brother of David Motherwell senior (father of my original three brothers) and this James is an Uncle of the James I already know. Yes, check on CWGC says this James (Dorset Regiment) was : Son of William Gemmell Motherwell and Mary Motherwell, of Belfast; husband of Marie Motherwell, of 20, Locket Rd., Wealdstone, Harrow, Middx.

So I think you have indirectly found me the Grandfather of the three (/ four ?) brothers!

Which paper is this from BTW - one of the Belfast ones or a London paper?

Many thanks - you seem to be helping me to identify a military family of some WW1 extent!

David