12th London Regiment - The Rangers

[Wattsy]

Hello Everyone

I am a newbie to this Site. After years of tracing my family history I have decided to embark on a "new topic" of trying to find out what happened to my Grandfather in WW1 and what he experienced. His name was Edmund Chipchase.

I have found his medal card on Ancestry and now know he enlisted 9/3/1915 No 2933. On his card he has another No 470700 still 12th London. I am interested why he would have been given another number whilst still in the same Regiment.

I know that he was involved at some time in a battle where he was one of very few survivors. A kind person has indicated that it was probably the 2nd battle of Ypres in May 1915. She believes that he would have been one of 53 out of 800 soldiers to have survived. I do remember him telling me about an annual dinner which he used to attend for these remaining fortunate individuals. I am interested if any one knows whether there is a list of the names and, if so, where I could find it.

I am intending to visit Kew to check out the Medal Rolls to establish if there is any further information. However, before I go, is there anywhere else that would have the records for the 12th London Regiment?

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Stebie9173]

Men of the Territorial Force (the portion of the Army that had been part-time before the war, but full-time during) were all renumbered in 1917, partly to ease the confusion of having so many different Regimental numbering systems. These numbers were allocated in the same order as the old numbers (with no number being allocated to dead or already discharged men.)

The date on the medal card is actually the date he went overses, not thedate of enlistment.

You should certainly try to look up the medal rolls at the National Archives at Kew. The London Regiment ones are particularly good in that they show the dates that a soldier served overseas, and with which battalions.

Also the SWB TP/4448 reference is to a Silver War badge Roll, which will tell you the reason for his discharge (often just Wounds or Sickness) and his date of enlistment, and discharge - the latter being already on the main Medal Card.

It appears that his service records didn't survive the Blitz, so you will unfortunately have a bit of "jigsaw puzzling" to do.

Steve.

[jay dubaya]

Hello Chipchase, welcome to the forum,

Firstly just to clarify the date that appears on the MIC. 'Date of entry' refers to the date that Edmund landed in France and not when he enlisted. The battalion itself first landed in France on Christmas Day 1914 and became Line of Communication Troops on 8th February 1915 and were attatched to the 84th Brigade of the 24th Division. On 20th May 1915 they became GHQ Troops and formed a composite battalion with the 1/5th and 1/13th Battalions. This was because of the heavy casualties the battalions had suffered in the fighting of April and May. The 28th Divison were involved in the battles of Gravenstaffel 22nd-23rd April. St. Julien. 24th April-5th May. Frezenberg. 8th-13th May. Bellewaarde. 24th-25th May (which collectively known are the 2nd Battle of Ypres)

There is mention of the 1/12th Bn in Sir John French's dispatch of 15th June 1915. "As to the fighting of 8th May", quoting Sir Herbert Plumber. "A counter attack was launched at 3:30pm" "The 12th London Rgt, on the left, succeeded, at great cost, in reaching the original trench line, and did considerable execution with their machine gun"

SDGW records 65 deaths for this date, there would have been many more casualties and PoW. 135 are recorded between 22nd April-25th May. 12th February 1916 saw the battalion with the 168th Bde of the 56th Division and the 31st January 1918 saw the battalion with 175th Bde of the 58th Division where they absorbed the 2/12th Bn.

It would appear that Edmunds service papers didn't survive the Blitz of 1940, but his MIC does indicate a SWB (Silver War Badge), this was awarded to soldiers who were discharged through wounds and being no longer physically fit for military service. The reference number will lead you to the Medal Roll which are held at Kew and should record his enlistment date as well as other details and the badge number. Note his eventual discharge date of 2nd February 1919 on his MIC.

Jon

edit: appologies for duplicating with Steve's post...bimbled off for a cuppa

[jay dubaya]

There is a battalion history available The Rangers’ Historical Records from 1859 to the Conclusion of the Great War

Jon

[Wattsy]

Just to say a big thanks to all who have given me advice and information.

Any more information particularly about the Rangers would be appreciated.

[Anthony Gorst]

Just to say a big thanks to all who have given me advice and information.

Any more information particularly about the Rangers would be appreciated.

Chipchase - I am interested in the Rangers from the point of view of the men from the Regent Street Polytechnic who served with it (they raised a company for it pre war and sent volunteers in its direction in 1914-15). Of the 65 men who died on 8th of May at least 12 were men from the Poly and 40 in the period 22nd April and 25th May.

Do you know if your grandfather attended the Poly - if so there might be references to him in the Polytechnic magazine held at the University of Westminster archives. There are certainy letters describing the experiencees of the Rangers.

The annual dinner you mention may be an Old Comrades Association mentioned in the magazines (I am as yet unclear if this is specifcally for the Poly or for the Rangers - probably the latter as the dinners were held at the Driill Hall in Chenies Street which was the prewar Headquarters of the Rangers - there is still a memorial to the Rangers on Chenies St): thre are accounts of the OCA together with some names in the Poly mag which I can root out for you if you wish.

[Wattsy]

Hi Tony

Thanks for your reply. My grandfather did not attend the Poly in Regent Street so unfortunately there would be no reference to him in any magazines.

[Anthony Gorst]

Chipchase

Probably should have explained - the Poly was as much a social and sporting institution as it was an educational one (very active Harriers/athletics and cycling clubs - more than a few national champions etc) - I will keep my eyes open anyway and will root out the OCA stuff

[Wattsy]

Thanks Tony, any help appreciated.

Whilst I am writing I am sure this is a very basic question but Grandad was in the 1/12 London Regiment.

What does the 1 in front of the 12 represent?

I am so ignorant about military matters, so sounding like a complete novice what does a Regiment consist of?

Is it batallions?

Ros

[Anthony Gorst]

Thanks Tony, any help appreciated.

Whilst I am writing I am sure this is a very basic question but Grandad was in the 1/12 London Regiment.

What does the 1 in front of the 12 represent?

I am so ignorant about military matters, so sounding like a complete novice what does a Regiment consist of?

Is it batallions?

Ros

Yup Have a look here http://www.1914-1918.net/london.htm

[bmac]

Ros,

The Rangers were a Territorial Force unit which existed before the war and the men who agreed to go overseas on the outbreak of war (not all did) formed the first line battalion, i.e. the 1/12th London Regt (The Rangers). Back in the UK new recruits and anyone left over from the original battalion, etc., formed a second line battalion, i.e. the 2/12th based in the UK for training purposes and from this unit drafts would have been sent out to replenish losses in the 1/12th. Later the second line battalions were also sent out so a third UK based training battalion was formed and then sometimes a fourth. Up until the summer of 1916 the drafts of men sent for active service would normally have gone to their own first line battalion but, such were the losses in the first days of the Somme battle, which hit community based units like the numerous Pals battalions especially hard, that this policy was abandoned. In the 56th (1st London) Division, of which the 1/12th London Regt was part, men from the various reserve battalions in the UK were split up across the whole division and some went to completely different divisions. This was a cause for great complaint when men from, say, The Rangers saw drafts from their reserve battalion marching past their billets to join a completely different unit.

Bill

[Wattsy]

Hi Bill

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to help me to understand the complex system of Regiments etc.

So I assume without my Grandad`s Service Record I will never be able to establish where he served and with which Brigades/Divisions.

Luckily I do have part of his Diary for 1917 in which he has written Arras. However, I have yet to trace where and when the 12th Regiment was so bady devistated that only a few survived. It could have been the Somme as he remarks upon the Anniverary in July 1917 in his diary.

Anyway, thanks again for your help.

Ros

[Anthony Gorst]

Hi Bill

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to help me to understand the complex system of Regiments etc.

So I assume without my Grandad`s Service Record I will never be able to establish where he served and with which Brigades/Divisions.

Luckily I do have part of his Diary for 1917 in which he has written Arras. However, I have yet to trace where and when the 12th Regiment was so bady devistated that only a few survived. It could have been the Somme as he remarks upon the Anniverary in July 1917 in his diary.

Anyway, thanks again for your help.

Ros

Rose

Ceertainly could be first day of the somme - follow the link on Bill's post he's the expert!

[bmac]

Ros,

The Rangers suffered 159 fatal casualties a the Frezenberg Ridge in the 2nd Battle of Ypres on the 8th May 1915. On 1st July 1916 at Gommecourt they lost 17 officers and 447 men, 58% of those going into action. 191 officers and men died. Sadly, not the worst of the day.

The battalion held a service on 7th May 1916 to commemorate the previous year's losses and obviously did the same for the men lost on 1st July a year later.

Of note, given the numbers you gave, i.e. 800 men and 53 survivors, on 1st July The Rangers went into action with 23 officers and 780 men, total 803 and, though 6 officers and 280 men answered roll call that evening the number of men who later returned to the ranks having been trapped in No Man's Land and otherwise detached was 53. Coincidence?

Anyway, if interested, the story of the 56th Division and The Rangers at Gommecourt is set out in detail in my book 'Pro Patria Mori' (he said in a shameless piece of self-promotion!)

Bill

[Wattsy]

Hi Bill

Thanks for that additional information - I am sure your figures must be correct. Whatever, the numbers killed or wounded are unbelievable. Grandad was fortuntate to survive.

Can you tell me if the Rangers Regimental papers still exist? Are they at the National Archives at Kew? I assume the London Regiments were amalgamated into other Regiments at some point after 1919. Any information what happened to them?

Sorry, going to pick your brain again with another question, if I may. As Grandad was in 1/12 London would be have then been likely that he would have enlisted immediately war was declared. What was the usual period of training before they went abroad to fight? All I know is that out of 4 brothers, 3 went to fight and the 4th who lost at cards had to stay at home with their mother.

Thanks again.

Ros

[bmac]

Ros,

The war diary of The Rangers at the NA is WO95/2954 for Feb 16 to Jan 18 then WO 95/3009.

I am not an expert on numbering and couldn't say whether his 2933 number indicates anything about the timing of his enlistment and he may even have been a pre-war Territorial. As he arrived in France two months after the battalion arrived this may be possible even likely. My grandfather was a pre-war Territorial but didn't get to France until summer 1915 and I would be somewhat surprised if he had enlisted in August or September 1914 that he'd have been ready by March 1915 but, as said, not an expert on this area.

Bill

[Anthony Gorst]

Ros

Checked the Polymags - Bingo - I have him in the October 1914 Polytechnic Magazine on the Poly Roll of Distinction (Heading 'Poly Boys who did fall in' This list includes all the names of Members we know to be enrolled in H M Forces').

He is therefore a Territorial and a member of the Poly.

[Wattsy]

Hi Tony

I am highly delighted and very much surprised at Grandads` link to the Poly. I know he played table tennis and was quite good as far as I know. So maybe his links were sporting rather than educational. As for him being in the Territorial Army this is a complete shock to my mother (his daughter). I am going to push her into finding this Annual Dinner memento and see what it links to. As far as Mum knows it was a dinner linked to The Rangers and it was held on honour of those few who survived. Survived what is still to be discovered.

If I send you a PM with my email address would it be possible for you to send me the article you mentioned in the Poly Magazine for October 1914. Any other references to the 12th Regiment which be relevant to Edmund Chipchase you find I would always be interested in.

Thanks for all your help

Ros

[Guest]

Dear Anthony

I wonder if you could look up my grandfather, John William Hicks, in the Polytechnic Magazine which you mention. He joined the Territorial Rangers in 1912 and I believe that he was in what was known as "The Poly Company". His regimental number was 1444.

Many thanks,

Gill

Ros

Checked the Polymags - Bingo - I have him in the October 1914 Polytechnic Magazine on the Poly Roll of Distinction (Heading 'Poly Boys who did fall in' This list includes all the names of Members we know to be enrolled in H M Forces').

He is therefore a Territorial and a member of the Poly.

[Anthony Gorst]

Dear Anthony

I wonder if you could look up my grandfather, John William Hicks, in the Polytechnic Magazine which you mention. He joined the Territorial Rangers in 1912 and I believe that he was in what was known as "The Poly Company". His regimental number was 1444.

Many thanks,

Gill

Will do - may take a little while. email me or pm me any info you have that might help narrow the search a little

Tony

[kat73]

Hi there!

I believe my great great Grandad (Robert George Collins) was in the 12th battalion. He enlisted in 1909 whilst working at the Gas Light & Coke Co and went to France in Sept 1915. I haven't had a chance to get to Kew yet, however his Regimental number was 60087 and he was a driver and I'm very interested in getting any details or just a basic idea of where he was and what he was doing. He did receive the SWB too. Thanks in advance!!!

[Anthony Gorst]

Gill

had a quick trawl through the Poly sources yesterday, no sign I'm afraid, one more possible sourceto check, probably next week.

Tony

[Anthony Gorst]

Ros

More from the Polymag on Edmund - he was wounded on the first day of the Somme - there is a report in the August 1916 Polymag stating that he was at West Ham hospital, Basingstoke recovering from his wounds sustained as he reached the German wire, shrapnel in the back that grazed his spine and a wound to the knee (his leg was saved apparently because he was carrying his spoon in the top of his puttee to have it easy to hand and a piece of sharpnel glanced off it denting the spoon but missing him!) Another piece of shrapnel hiit his helmet and dented it. Sounds like he had a bad time of it, no wonder he remembered it in his diary a year later.

I think this locks down a connection to the Poly, but as to what that is I know not but I will keep an eye out. I'll email a copy of the file to you

Tony

[Wattsy]

Hi Tony

Have sent you an email. Just in case please accept my thanks for all your help

Regards

Ros

[Rick Back]

Hi Anthony, 

 

is is there any record of my great uncle in the poly history you mention as I am desperate to find a photo of George Henry Back who was killed on the first day of the Somme with the Rangers.

 

rick