The Victoria Cross and Women

[Sue Light]

I've recently read on an authoritative web site that:

At the beginning of World War 1 the only military award for gallantry available to women was the Victoria Cross. The chances of a woman finding herself in the circumstances where she could earn it in the face on the enemy were so remote that the possibility was wholly ignored.

Although I know that the 1920 Royal Warrant made provisions for women, what was the situation before the war? It's now said that the only gallantry medal available to women during the Great War was the Military Medal, so did the Warrant ever make provision for women pre-war, and if so, was it changed for the duration of the war, and then changed again in 1920? Or was ambiguity in the original RW taken to include women when in fact that was never intended?

Sue

[Nigel Marshall]

Hi Sue,

I have a copy of MJ Crook's 'The Evolution of the Victoria Cross', which reproduces the successive Royal Warrants governing the VC. You are quite right that prior to 1920 there was no specific provision made for the award of the VC to women. As one might expect from the language of the time, previous versions of the warrant refer to prosective recipients in male terms. Previous warrants do not, however preclude women from becoming eligible under certain circumstances, and, as you asked, this leaves behind the ambiguity which is causing you to ask your questions.

I can say, having just re-read the warrants, that the warrant was not changed for the duration of the war, but it was changed afterwards (the 1920 warrant you mention in your post), basing its decisions on the findings of a committee which was set up while the war was still being fought. I have to say that the insertion of 'Matrons, Sisters, Nurses and the staff of the Nursing Services and other Services pertaining to Hospitals and Nursing, and civilians of either sex serving regularly or temporarily under the Orders, direction or supervision of any of the above mentioned Forces' in Clause 6 Section 6 of the 1920 warrant detailing who may qualify, still smacks of afterthought.

I hope this helps a bit?

Cheers,

Nigel

[Sue Light]

Thanks Nigel, that's great - the information really helps to clarify the situation. I feel sure that there was never the intention in the original Warrant for women to be included - the omission in naming them was surely because it would never have entered anyone's mind that the Victoria Cross might touch them in any way, and quite rightly so. Later on - Boer War period - who knows if anyone thought about it, but as the situation didn't arise, the need wasn't there. So to say 'at the beginning of WW1 the only military award for gallantry available to women was the Victoria Cross' was probably erroneous - if some such occasion had arisen, I feel certain a bar would have been raised.

But the Great War did change things, as they became eligible for the Military Medal, and many nurses were just a whisker away from meeting the Germans 'in the Field' especially in March and April 1918. Some had proved they could be fearless under pressure, and I guess that the realisation dawned that some qualifying act by a woman had become a possibility - even if an afterthought!

Sue

[Tonym]

Sue

Your post reminded me of something I picked up from Google, might be of interest

"Another medical woman, Mrs Frances Bell, served in the Boer War of 1899-1902. She rescued some badly wounded men who were under fire, trapped in an ambushed convoy. As a reward for her bravery, she was presented to Queen Victoria at Buckingham Palace and awarded a Victoria Cross, but the award was never gazetted, for women were not eligible to receive it. - Women at War: 'She-Soldiers' Through the Ages By Peter Craddick-Adams – 25th January 2005"

Full story can be found here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/wars_co...at_war_07.shtml

Tony

[Sue Light]

Thanks Tony

I have to ponder on how she could have been awarded a Victoria Cross when women were not eligible for it, especially as she was a civilian. Having said that, some of the guff on those pages is truly awful, and I wonder how the BBC can be happy to have their name on it. Peter Craddick-Adams seems to have some credibility as a military historian, but I think he should steer well clear of the medical stuff. Unfortunately it's a good example of what gets accepted as reputable and then multiplies all over the web. So easy for some to write rubbish about women and get away with it.

Rant over.

Sue

[Tonym]

Sorry about that Sue!

If it did happen perhaps the word 'Award' is wrong. Two girls together, had a drop too much and Queenie, a bit inebriated, 'gave' her one as a souvenir. How's that sound?

Tony

[Sue Light]

That sounds about right!

'Fiddlesticks to the regulations. My husband and I (if he was still with us) feel that you jolly well deserve this pretty brooch, and I won't tell if you won't ... '

It's starting to have the ring of truth now - mind you, Queen V. died in 1901, so I wonder exactly when this happened, and how fit she was at the time

Sue

[alliekiwi]

I just love this bit:

Little is known of her origins or of her female name, if she ever had one, but the little, five-foot doctor pursued a career in the army medical service via postings in South Africa, Mauritius, the West Indies, Malta (where she earned the Duke of Wellington’s praise), the Crimea and Canada.

What the...? Just how many women named James were there, really?

Allie

[Sue Light]

That rather seems to sum up the pages. And although Frances Bell (above) is rather difficult to pin down, Dr. James Barry can be found all over the place, and it would have been fairly simple to lay out what's actually known about him/her. And just to add a name (other than James) it was believed to be Margaret Bulkley. There are some papers at The National Archives that might be interesting to have a look through some time.

And while browsing for Frances Bell, I saw that the Victoria Cross Forum (which I think belongs to Les/EvilTaxman) has been lobbying the BBC about Peter Craddick's pages.

Mrs Frances Bell - A Boer War VC?

Sue

[per ardua per mare per terram]

still smacks of afterthought.

I disagree, the 1920 Warrent clarified and made explicit many areas regarding the award of the VC that were unclear including the important area of posthumous awards!

With regards to women the terms were ambiuous; provision 5 of the 1856 Warrant talks about 'men' but the 6th specifies "all persons" were eligable.

I am dubious about the case of Mrs Frances Bell, I don't recall it being in any book on the VC; there is a case from the 1850s where soldiers presented a gold replica cross to a lady. In any seanario for Mrs Bell, even as painted by pals on this thread the act of the Queen handing a VC to another person would be the same as awarding it and the act would be recorded. The VC was named after her; the original warrent was more than likely drawn up by her darling Albert; if she wanted to confer one on someone then she no doubt would have done so and the precident would have been set.

[Sue Light]

I suspect that the story of Frances Bell has its roots in family history and grew from a little acorn. So many people link stories of awards to their female relatives with the only medal they have heard of, and an award of (for instance) the Royal Red Cross can easily become something different in the telling. I often have emails asking for information on a nurse who supposedly received a Military Medal (or even a DCM or MC) when in fact nothing other than service medals can be traced. Unfortunately it's often the case that people only want to hear what they want to hear, and pointing out errors like this is often unwelcome.

Sue

[petestarling]

Sue

There are two files in the National Archives concerning the award of the MC to women (or the lack of it). If you do not already have them, pm me and I will forward them.

Pete

[royalredcross]

Sue has it exacty right. As one who used to have to answer many queries re decorations from the General Public, I can confirm her remarks entirely. And sometimes the actual facts will not be believed by those who have had the "story" handed down in their family.

Errors are common place. I well remember the gentleman who refused to believe that his father had not been awarded the George Medal, even though I could find no reference to it in any of the published works. I finally asked him to describe the medal to me .... it was a 1935 Jubilee Medal !!

NGG

[Borden Battery]

Here is a discussion forum specific to the Victoria Cross. One might contact these members for further background. Borden Battery

*Victoria Cross Forum

This small but specialized forum in both Dutch and English was formed in December 2004. The objectives of the moderators are to give the VC-recipients the honour they deserve and we want to get the Victoria Cross more known in the Netherlands and in Belgium. Currently the forum has about 88 registered members from around the world and 5000 postings. The topics are specific to the VC, the recipients and the actions associated with the events. [CEF Study Group – Oct 2008 - Updated]

http://www.dvdhoven.nl/Victoria-Cross/

[Sue Light]

There are two files in the National Archives concerning the award of the MC to women (or the lack of it). If you do not already have them, pm me and I will forward them.

Thanks Pete, I have copied them in the past - thankfully they make the situation pretty clear about the MC, even if not acceptable to all.

Sue

[AnthonyStaunton]

I suspect that the story of Frances Bell has its roots in family history and grew from a little acorn. So many people link stories of awards to their female relatives with the only medal they have heard of, and an award of (for instance) the Royal Red Cross can easily become something different in the telling. I often have emails asking for information on a nurse who supposedly received a Military Medal (or even a DCM or MC) when in fact nothing other than service medals can be traced. Unfortunately it's often the case that people only want to hear what they want to hear, and pointing out errors like this is often unwelcome.

As of today the BBC still has http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/wars_co...at_war_07.shtml on its web without any indication that the facts of the story have been queried.

The story of Frances Bell probably has its roots in family history and as Sue says pointing out errors like this is often unwelcome. However, I am a bit sad that an organization such as the BBC is uninterested in correcting factual errors. I am more surprised that the author has not addressed the issue. Most historians I know react very positively to feedback and are pleased to amend their material particularly when it is online and so easy to update.

[woundwort]

I have to ponder on how she could have been awarded a Victoria Cross when women were not eligible for it, especially as she was a civilian.

A handful of civilians did receive the VC during the Indian Mutiny and 2nd Afghan War; including medical staff protecting the injured. But, yes, the lack of documentation for Mrs. Frances Bell makes me skeptical. I wonder if Frances even is her name, and not hubby's (albeit, mispelt). My gut tells me that referring to her as Mrs. Frances Bell is a direct quote from a source document, and than in 1901 Mrs. X Y would have featured a male name as X.

Dr. James Barry concealed herself as a man, just as Christian Davies did a century beforehand (although, when admitted to the Royal Chelsea Hospital in 1717, her sex was an open secret).

I assume that when, a decade after Bell's supposed actions, the MM was instigated one of the reasons was to open recognition to nurses and other women demonstrating great bravery on the battlefield.

The GC has been awarded to only four women, with only one of them - Jane Harrison, onboard BOAC Flight 712 - not being connected to the military. IMO, there should have been at least a fifth: Lisa Potts.

Out of interest, who wa/is the highest decorated woman in the British armed forces? L/Cpl. Kylie Watson MC definitely got hers in similar circumstances to Bell's supposed actions, and the linked article says three women previously had been awarded the MC... although, given it's speculation by the BBC, they could quite easily be wrong (perhaps thinking of the three SOE operatives who were awarded the GC).

[David_Underdown]

Michelle Norris (RAMC attd PWRR) was the first woman to receive the MC, gazetted 15 December 2006 for actions in Iraq on 11 June that year

The second was Kate Nesbitt (first RN female recipient), a medical assistant attd 1RIFLES for actions in Afghanistan during March 2009.

Don't know who the third they are referring to is, off the top of head

[woundwort]

Mercy buckets, David!

[Gibbo]

According to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, the three female SOE agents awarded the GC had the following decorations:

Noor Inayat Khan GC, MBE, Croix de Guerre. Wikipedia says that she was also Mentioned in Dispatches.

Odette Hallowes GC, MBE. Wikipedia says that she also created a Chevalier de la Legion d'Honneur.

Violette Szabo GC, Croix de Guerre. Wikipedia says that she was also awarded the Medaille de la Resistance,

[Tonym]

It has always been a source of amazment to me that the three female SOE agents were awarded a decoration that I understand is awarded for Valour above and beyond the call of duty 'not in the face of the enemy' - I wonder how much closer to the enemy you can be than operating in a country occupied by them also face to face with them in a Concentration camp and, in the case of two, being executed for failing to cooperate with them and knowing the consequences???

Tony

[royalredcross]

The third MC was to another RAMC girl named Bushby.

NGG

[Jonathan Saunders]

is a

Thanks Tony

I have to ponder on how she could have been awarded a Victoria Cross when women were not eligible for it, especially as she was a civilian.

Sue - whilst the dates are tight for Queen Victoria to personally have bestowed the award, I wouldnt completely discount this as in circa 1870 the Queen is said to have awarded a Victoria Cross to the mother of Ensign Everard Phillipps, who had been killed during the Indian Mutiny. The award was "unofficial" as there was no provision to award a posthumous VC at the time, for which he would have been recommended had he lived, albeit several years before the award is said to have been made. I guess if you have a medal named after you then you can do what you like! The story is explained in the Ashcroft Gallery at the IWM.

It is a slightly different story/ending to Frances Bell as Ensign Phillipps was officially awarded a posthumous VC in 1907, but a potential precedent all the same.

Best regards,

Jonathan S

[Jonathan Saunders]

It has always been a source of amazment to me that the three female SOE agents were awarded a decoration that I understand is awarded for Valour above and beyond the call of duty 'not in the face of the enemy' - I wonder how much closer to the enemy you can be than operating in a country occupied by them also face to face with them in a Concentration camp and, in the case of two, being executed for failing to cooperate with them and knowing the consequences???

Tony

I imagine it is because they weren't actually engaged in actual combat with the enemy when they were performing their heroic deeds. Not so long ago a Royal Marine Reservist was awarded a GC for smothering a booby trap in Afghanistan when his troop had entered a building in the belief it was a bomb making factory. It happened to be empty of enemy personnel but not enemy ordnance, however, as his heroics were not in the face of the enemy, he could not be awarded the VC but did receive a very well deserved GC.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[bill24chev]

I imagine it is because they weren't actually engaged in actual combat with the enemy when they were performing their heroic deeds.

Regards,

Jonathan S

Yes for the VC contact with the enemy is required.

One of the Heroes of the Iraq conflict was I beleive recommended for a VC but was actually awarded a GC because his heroic deed although under intense fire was not enemy action but a Blue on Blue.

Incidentaly regarding VC's to women I started a thread (i cant now locate it) where I asked "Would the Female medics have ben awarde a VC if a. thy were male or B. it happened in WW1. I quoted similarities to the two VC and Bar's awarded to medical officers in WW1 but the general opinion was the MC was the right award