Looking for further information

[Ruth Steels]

I don't seem to be able to find any more information about my grandfather other than his Medal Record. - NOW CONFIRMED AS THE WRONG FRANK ARNOLD, SO DON'T EVEN HAVE THAT INFO

I think there may be some connection with the Yeoman Rifles as I can remember attending the Reunions with him at Helmsley - lunch at the Feversham Arms and and then going to Duncombe Park for a service in the chapel there.

He was born on the 11 JUne 1895 at Wheldrake near York.

Is anyone out there able to point me in the right direction please.

[sotonmate]

BJ

Is there a date into Theatre on his Medal Card ? It might help to ID his Division. More likely to identify his Battalion are the numbers and letters against the medals issued.

Sotonmate

[Ruth Steels]

BJ

Is there a date into Theatre on his Medal Card ? It might help to ID his Division. More likely to identify his Battalion are the numbers and letters against the medals issued.

Sotonmate

There is nothing on the Theatre of War or Date of Entry records.

He was awarded the Victory Medal under ref LC/101B/64 Page 16682

[The Inspector]

Hi all

His medical records are on Ancestry (Service) under 446616.Prev service with 4th Yorks Militia no.4640, Think you have the wrong date of birth. He was 38 in 1919. Bought himself out of Militia in 1903. Born 1881? 36 Hallifield St, Norton on Tees, Durham

Regards Barry

[Ruth Steels]

Hi all

His medical records are on Ancestry (Service) under 446616.Prev service with 4th Yorks Militia no.4640, Think you have the wrong date of birth. He was 38 in 1919. Bought himself out of Militia in 1903. Born 1881? 36 Hallifield St, Norton on Tees, Durham

Regards Barry

Thanks very much for that information - I am starting to think that I have the wrong service medal record. My Frank Arnolds date of birth was definitely 11th June 1895 and he was born at Wheldrake near York, East Yorkshire. He is listed on the war memorial in Wheldrake Church as having served in the war.

Looks like I will have to keep delving !!!!

[MBrockway]

Pals,

Here's the top section of the Roll of Honour in St. Helen's Church, Wheldrake with Frank's name first:

No regimental detail unfortunately.

I'm not clear where the Yorks Militia come into this.

I assume that the Yeoman Rifles you mention is 21st (Service) Battalion (Yeoman Rifles), King's Royal Rifle Corps. They were known as the Yeoman Rifles. They were formed at Helmsley in 1915 , commanded by the Earl of Feversham - famously buried with his deerhound after falling at the Battle of Flers in September 1916 - and were raised from men in Co.Durham, Northumberland, Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire and Norfolk - exactly the area we're discussing here.

There are MICs for three Frank Arnolds in the KRRC with Service Numbers R/33370, C/10 and C/12016 respectively.

KRRC Service Numbers follow a schema¹, though this was not always prescriptively applied, and men were often posted out of their original allocated battalion, so what follows is not conclusive - merely reasonably reliable!

• R/33370 would most likely belong to a man in 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th or 13th battalions, with the higher numbered ones being more probable.
• C/10 would belong to a man in 16th (Church Lads Brigade) Battalion.
• C/12016 would belong to a very early volunteer in 21st (Yeoman Rifles) Battalion.

I'd therefore say that your grandfather was Rfn Frank ARNOLD, C/12016, King's Royal Rifle Corps.

21/KRRC recruits from the North and East Ridings went into "A" Company. I think Wheldrake was in the old North Riding (?), so Frank was probably in A Coy. If my geography's wrong, West Riding men went to "B" Coy, so that's the other option.

The MIC for Frank Arnold, Pte., KRRC, C/12016 shows entitlement to the British War Medal and the Victory Medal, with the Medal Roll References being Roll: M/101 B8 (or possibly 138) Page: 913.

For some reason, there's no entry for Theatre nor Date of Entry, though clearly he was in a Theatre of War as he is on the Victory Medal Roll.

There's no other information on the MIC, front or back.

I can forward you the image if you PM me.

You're a very lucky man to have been taken along to reunions of this excellent unit!

Cheers,

Mark

¹ Thanks due to Andy Pay for the details of the KRRC & RB schema

[Ruth Steels]

Pals,

Here's the top section of the Roll of Honour in St. Helen's Church, Wheldrake with Frank's name first:

No regimental detail unfortunately.

I'm not clear where the Yorks Militia come into this.

I assume that the Yeoman Rifles you mention is 21st (Service) Battalion (Yeoman Rifles), King's Royal Rifle Corps. They were known as the Yeoman Rifles. They were formed at Helmsley in 1915 , commanded by the Earl of Feversham - famously buried with his deerhound after falling at the Battle of Flers in Spetmebr 1916 - and were raised from men in Co.Durham, Northumberland, Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire and Norfolk - exactly the area we're discussing here.

There are MICs for three Frank Arnolds in the KRRC with Service Numbers R/33370, C/10 and C/12016 respectively.

KRRC Service Numbers follow a schema¹, though this was not always prescriptively applied, and men were often posted out of their original allocated battalion, so what follows is not conclusive - merely reasonably reliable!

• R/33370 would most likely belong to a man in 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th or 13th battalions, with the higher numbered ones being more probable.
• C/10 would belong to a man in 16th (Church Lads Brigade) Battalion.
• C/12016 would belong to a very early volunteer in 21st (Yeoman Rifles) Battalion.

I'd therefore say that your grandfather was Rfn Frank ARNOLD, C/12016, King's Royal Rifle Corps.

21/KRRC recruits from the North and East Ridings went into "A" Company. I think Wheldrake was in the old North Riding (?), so Frank was probably in A Coy. If my geography's wrong, West Riding men went to "B" Coy, so that's the other option.

The MIC for Frank Arnold, Pte., KRRC, C/12016 shows entitlement to the British War Medal and the Victory Medal, with the Medal Roll References being Roll: M/101 B8 (or possibly 138) Page: 913.

For some reason, there's no entry for Theatre nor Date of Entry, though clearly he was in a Theatre of War as he is on the Victory Medal Roll.

There's no other information on the MIC, front or back.

I can forward you the image if you PM me.

You're a very lucky man to have been taken along to reunions of this excellent unit!

Cheers,

Mark

¹ Thanks due to Andy Pay for the details of the KRRC & RB schema

Mark [and Andy Pay]

Thank you so much for the information - you have made my day.

Yes I do realize I was very lucky to attend the reunions with my grandfather - a very lucky young girl !!!

It was sad that each year you went there were less and less of the old comrades there.

With kindest regards and many thanks

Ruth

[The Inspector]

Hi all

Nice one Mark, as a matter of interest how did you get the MIC, can't bring it up on Ancestry, have searched the Arnolds for Service & Pension records, nothing. Been looking at relatives, Thomas & Lillian parents 1901.

Regards Barry

[MBrockway]

Mark [and Andy Pay]

Thank you so much for the information - you have made my day.

Yes I do realize I was very lucky to attend the reunions with my grandfather - a very lucky young girl !!!

It was sad that each year you went there were less and less of the old comrades there.

With kindest regards and many thanks

Ruth

Ruth,

My pleasure!

If I were you, I'd now edit the title of the topic to say something like "Rfn Frank Arnold, 21st (Yeoman Rifles) KRRC". That way you might get some of the other KRRC specialists dropping in and even more detail added. I myself usually just scan the Topic headings looking for KRRC and it was luck really that Yeoman Rifles caught my eye!

For your info, 21/KRRC were in 124th Brigade in 41st Division. They arrived in France on 6th May 1916 and went into the line at Ploegstreet south of Ypres in June, before being moved south to the Somme in late August 1916. The battalion performed particularly bravely at the Battle of Flers in September 1916, though at the cost of their commanding officer, the Earl of Feversham. As I mentioned above, he was buried with his faithful deerhound. Legend has it also that the burial party was commanded by future PM Anthony Eden - this may be apocryphal, but Eden was certainly an officer in the Yeoman Rifles.

While still on The Somme, the battalion suffered very high casualties on 7th October while in support at Bayonet Trench. Very few of the original north country men surviving - Frank was obviously lucky! Thereafter the character of the battalion changed, with most of the replacement drafts being Londoners.

In November 1917, 21/KRRC was rushed with their division to bolster the Italian Front after Caporetto, but returned in spring 1918 to France, where on 18th March 21/KRRC was disbanded. The men were distributed amongst other KRRC battalions, so Frank would have spent the last 8 months of the war in one of these other KRRC battalions. The disbandment was due to the restructuring of the Army into brigades containing only three battalions.

Anyway that gives you a bit of background to Frank's unit.

Cheers,

Mark

PS Thanks for the PM - appreciated

[MBrockway]

... as a matter of interest how did you get the MIC, can't bring it up on Ancestry, have searched the Arnolds for Service & Pension records, nothing. ....

Regards Barry

Barry,

Here's a link to the image on Ancestry ...

Frank's MIC image (Ancestry account needed to view this)

I found it via a Search on the British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 for First Name = Frank, Last Name = Arnold, and Regiment or Corps = king's royal rifle corps. I'd already done a NA MIC search though, so I knew I should definitely find three MICs. I've found the Ancestry searches occasionally fail to return things I find easily on the National Archive site - humph!

Perhaps the trick is to go to the MIC section before running the search??

Ruth,

I should warn you that we can only be 95% certain that we have got the right MIC for Frank here - the KRRC Service Number schema is not 100% reliable. We'll need someone to check the actual medal rolls to confirm that Frank Arnold C/12016 was in the 21st battalion. Unfortunately I don't have them or I'd do it for you!

The medal rolls will most likely also show which battalion Frank was in after 21/KRRC was disbanded.

HTH.

CHeers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

... Been looking at relatives, Thomas & Lillian parents 1901.

Regards Barry

Barry / Ruth,

There's a Thomas Arnold, farmer in Kelly's Directory 1905 for Wheldrake, but he's not in the Bulmer's Directory for 1892.

Also, it looks like Wheldrake was in the old East Riding, not the North Riding, but that would still point to Frank being in A Company.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Ruth,

Here's some census and birth/marriage/death background for you ...

1901 Census

Fairburn Cottage, Wheldrake

Thomas ARNOLD, 40 years, Head, Farmer,

Lillian ARNOLD, 39, wife,

Florence May ARNOLD, 10, daughter

Frank ARNOLD, 6, son

Margaret Annie ARNOLD, 4, daughter

Ivy Madeline ARNOLD, 5 months, daughter

- all born in Wheldrake, Yorkshire

1891 Census

Wheldrake

Thomas ARNOLD, 30, years, Head, Agricultural Labourer

Lilian (sic) ARNOLD, 29, wife

Florance (sic) May ARNOLD, 7 months, daughter

- all born in Wheldrake, Yorkshire

Registers of Births, Marriages & Deaths - District of York (contains Wheldrake)

Birth: Apr/May/Jun 1865 - Thomas ARNOLD ? (not certain this is your GGF)

Birth: Jul/Aug/Sep 1861 - Lillian FAIRBURN

Marriage: Apr/May/Jun 1888 - Thomas ARNOLD & Lilian (sic) FAIRBURN

Birth: Jul/Aug/Sep 1890 - Florence May ARNOLD

Birth: Jul/Aug/Sep 1894 - Frank ARNOLD (your GF)

Birth: Jan/Feb/Mar 1897 - Margaret Annie ARNOLD

Birth: Oct/Nov/Dec 1900 - Ivy Madeline ARNOLD

[NB the dates are those of the Register entry - the actual event recorded can be up to 6 months earlier]

Enjoy!

Cheers,

Mark

[bobshaw]

Ruth,

My pleasure!

If I were you, I'd now edit the title of the topic to say something like "Rfn Frank Arnold, 21st (Yeoman Rifles) KRRC". That way you might get some of the other KRRC specialists dropping in and even more detail added. I myself usually just scan the Topic headings looking for KRRC and it was luck really that Yeoman Rifles caught my eye!

For your info, 21/KRRC were in 124th Brigade in 41st Division. They arrived in France on 6th May 1916 and went into the line at Ploegstreet south of Ypres in June, before being moved south to the Somme in late August 1916. The battalion performed particularly bravely at the Battle of Flers in September 1916, though at the cost of their commanding officer, the Earl of Feversham. As I mentioned above, he was buried with his faithful deerhound. Legend has it also that the burial party was commanded by future PM Anthony Eden - this may be apocryphal, but Eden was certainly an officer in the Yeoman Rifles.

While still on The Somme, the battalion suffered very high casualties on 7th October while in support at Bayonet Trench. Very few of the original north country men surviving - Frank was obviously lucky! Thereafter the character of the battalion changed, with most of the replacement drafts being Londoners.

In November 1917, 21/KRRC was rushed with their division to bolster the Italian Front after Caporetto, but returned in spring 1918 to France, where on 18th March 21/KRRC was disbanded. The men were distributed amongst other KRRC battalions, so Frank would have spent the last 8 months of the war in one of these other KRRC battalions. The disbandment was due to the restructuring of the Army into brigades containing only three battalions.

Anyway that gives you a bit of background to Frank's unit.

Cheers,

Mark

PS Thanks for the PM - appreciated

Hi Mike, there seems to have been a fair amount of data going backward/forward on the KRRC, so was wondering if you might be able to please help with some for me.

1. on the 15th Aug 1916 the Sherwood Foresters marched into 2nd Army Area in the vicinity of PLOEGSTEERT and relieved the 18th Bn KRRC in the reserve area - any ideas where this rest area was?

2. on the 17th August 1916 the Sherwood Foresters relieved the 21st Bn KRRC in front line trenches in front of PLOEGSTEERT WOOD. Do you have any map references or ideas exactly which sector the KRRC were in?

3. Have you come across these names, possibly rest or billet areas, I am unable to find them on any map, they appear to be some where between BAILLEUI and STAPLE - on the French-Belgium Boarder.

a. OUTTERSTEEN

b. PAPOT

c. ROUGE CROIX

Kind regards..................Bob

[MBrockway]

Hi Mike, there seems to have been a fair amount of data going backward/forward on the KRRC, so was wondering if you might be able to please help with some for me.

1. on the 15th Aug 1916 the Sherwood Foresters marched into 2nd Army Area in the vicinity of PLOEGSTEERT and relieved the 18th Bn KRRC in the reserve area - any ideas where this rest area was?

2. on the 17th August 1916 the Sherwood Foresters relieved the 21st Bn KRRC in front line trenches in front of PLOEGSTEERT WOOD. Do you have any map references or ideas exactly which sector the KRRC were in?

3. Have you come across these names, possibly rest or billet areas, I am unable to find them on any map, they appear to be some where between BAILLEUI and STAPLE - on the French-Belgium Boarder.

a. OUTTERSTEEN

b. PAPOT

c. ROUGE CROIX

Kind regards..................Bob

Bob - it's Mark actually but I'll do my best to help you.

1. 18/KRRC section of 1916 KRRC Chronicle has 18/KRRC moving on 9th May 1916 from Steenje, near Bailleul to the Ploegsteert Sector, where it relieved 12/Royal Scots of 27 Brigade in 9th Division. They spent the next two months in "ordinary trench routine work" with a minor trench raid in July. They were not in Reserve, though obviously for part of the time their Brigade was manning this sector, they would have been in Support and Reserve areas under the standard rotation of battalions. They were drawn out of the line on 7th June for an inspection by the King, returning immediately. On 15th August they received orders to move south to join in the Battle of the Somme.

Unfortunately there is no more specific detail about their exact whereabouts in the Ploegsteert sector in the KRRC Chronicle. This would be in the War Diary most likely, or you could try researching where the 12/Royal Scots had been before the relief.

2. 21/KRRC section of 1916 KRRC Chronicle has even less information. 21st Btn KRRC (The Yeoman Rifles) arrived in France on 4th May 1916, spent about three weeks in billets near Bailleul before going into the line "at Ploegsteert, remaining there until the middle of August, at the end of which it moved to the Somme. By then it had attained a high fightiong reputation." The original battalion had been virtually wiped out by the middle of October, so the Chronicle is a bit thin on their exploits before the Somme. Again, it would be worth you looking up the 21/KRRC War Diary at the NA.

3a. OUTTERSTEEN

This is Outtersteene, which is about 5km SW of Bailleul and about 10km due E of Hazebrouck

3b. PAPOT

This is about 2km NW of Nieppe on the Armentieres to Bailleul road. It's not marked on the modern IGN 1:100,000 Sheet 02, but is very close to Pont d'Achelles which is.

3c. ROUGE CROIX

This is about 6km ENE of Hazebrouck on the road between Caestre and Strazeele aboout 1 mile N of Pradelles.

I assume this is not related to Frank Arnold?

Cheers,

Mark

[bobshaw]

Bob - it's Mark actually but I'll do my best to help you.

1. 18/KRRC section of 1916 KRRC Chronicle has 18/KRRC moving on 9th May 1916 from Steenje, near Bailleul to the Ploegsteert Sector, where it relieved 12/Royal Scots of 27 Brigade in 9th Division. They spent the next two months in "ordinary trench routine work" with a minor trench raid in July. They were not in Reserve, though obviously for part of the time their Brigade was manning this sector, they would have been in Support and Reserve areas under the standard rotation of battalions. They were drawn out of the line on 7th June for an inspection by the King, returning immediately. On 15th August they received orders to move south to join in the Battle of the Somme.

Unfortunately there is no more specific detail about their exact whereabouts in the Ploegsteert sector in the KRRC Chronicle. This would be in the War Diary most likely, or you could try researching where the 12/Royal Scots had been before the relief.

2. 21/KRRC section of 1916 KRRC Chronicle has even less information. 21st Btn KRRC (The Yeoman Rifles) arrived in France on 4th May 1916, spent about three weeks in billets near Bailleul before going into the line "at Ploegsteert, remaining there until the middle of August, at the end of which it moved to the Somme. By then it had attained a high fightiong reputation." The original battalion had been virtually wiped out by the middle of October, so the Chronicle is a bit thin on their exploits before the Somme. Again, it would be worth you looking up the 21/KRRC War Diary at the NA.

3a. OUTTERSTEEN

This is Outtersteene, which is about 5km SW of Bailleul and about 10km due E of Hazebrouck

3b. PAPOT

This is about 2km NW of Nieppe on the Armentieres to Bailleul road. It's not marked on the modern IGN 1:100,000 Sheet 02, but is very close to Pont d'Achelles which is.

3c. ROUGE CROIX

This is about 6km ENE of Hazebrouck on the road between Caestre and Strazeele aboout 1 mile N of Pradelles.

I assume this is not related to Frank Arnold?

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark, sorry I used the wrong name. Please accept my most sincere thanks for the very valuable information and time spent. First I must also apologise for using that particular way of making contact with you, I am still fairly new to the Forum and get a bit confused on how to make contact with fellow researchers, so NO the enquiry has no bearing on Frank Arnold - sorry. I have been hitting a brick wall regarding my grandfather who was with the Sherwood Foresters and found in their War Diary references to other Regiments and Places, so thought that maybe you might have more info than was given in the War Diary - like you there seems to be very little in the way of detail, never the less I also appreciate you giving me details of the places as I had not been able to find them on any of the maps these will now complete my "map" of places the Battalion went to. Like your two Regiments the Sherwood Foresters starting on the 10th Sep 1916 also marches back to the Somme.

Kind regards, take care,

Bob

[MBrockway]

Hi Mark, sorry I used the wrong name. Please accept my most sincere thanks for the very valuable information and time spent. First I must also apologise for using that particular way of making contact with you, I am still fairly new to the Forum and get a bit confused on how to make contact with fellow researchers, so NO the enquiry has no bearing on Frank Arnold - sorry. I have been hitting a brick wall regarding my grandfather who was with the Sherwood Foresters and found in their War Diary references to other Regiments and Places, so thought that maybe you might have more info than was given in the War Diary - like you there seems to be very little in the way of detail, never the less I also appreciate you giving me details of the places as I had not been able to find them on any of the maps these will now complete my "map" of places the Battalion went to. Like your two Regiments the Sherwood Foresters starting on the 10th Sep 1916 also marches back to the Somme.

Kind regards, take care,

Bob

No problem Bob!

Best way to handle a new query to the Pals is to start off a new topic. If you are canny about what Title you give it, then you'll attract in the specialists in whatever it is you need help with.

Also don't be afraid to start separate Topics for each question. In this case I personally would have done a new Topic (and in Units & Formations, not Soldiers) asking for info on the movements of 18th and 21st KRRC, and a second new Topic for the question about the places.

This helps keep it all neat for searching in the future!

Good luck with your researches - back in my school cadet days we were badged under the Worcestershire & Sherwood Foresters, so I've got a soft spot for the original parent regiments

Cheers,

Mark

[bobshaw]

No problem Bob!

Best way to handle a new query to the Pals is to start off a new topic. If you are canny about what Title you give it, then you'll attract in the specialists in whatever it is you need help with.

Also don't be afraid to start separate Topics for each question. In this case I personally would have done a new Topic (and in Units & Formations, not Soldiers) asking for info on the movements of 18th and 21st KRRC, and a second new Topic for the question about the places.

This helps keep it all neat for searching in the future!

Good luck with your researches - back in my school cadet days we were badged under the Worcestershire & Sherwood Foresters, so I've got a soft spot for the original parent regiments

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark,

Thanks for being understanding, and I really appreciate your help and tips for future topics. It was also nice to see that you have a "soft spot" for the Worcestershire & Sherwood Foresters, even though your research is with the KRRC.

Kind regards

Bob