Conscientious Objectors

[geraint]

I've been researching this area's wartime contribution for years, including the town's deaths, enlistment, associated contributions etc. I have yet to find a single local reference to any conscientious objectors throughout the period. This is going against the perceived belief that Welsh non-conformist Wales was a veritable haven of conscientious objectors. There are plenty of references to shirkers, Derby registration dodgers, deserters etc; but non for a religious or conscientious reason. Is this reflected in other regions in Britain? Views and opinions welcomed.

[John_Hartley]

I'm currently reading a number of Manchester area newspapers and there are frequent reports from the "tribunals"

[Tony Lund]

Plenty mentioned in reports of the Military Tribunals in Huddersfield and Holmfirth. However they are not named in this area, but reports of nearby Batley's Military Tribunal give the names of the appellants.

The local paper seems the best place to look (up here anyway).

Tony.

[AlanCurragh]

In case you don't know, Ian Hislop's Not Forgotten programme on Monday evening on Channel 4 concerns conscientious objectors.

Alan

[Desdichado]

You should get hold of Cyril Pearce's excellent book "Comrades in Conscience" (Francis Boutle Publishers (30 Nov 2001)). I'm currently looking over the minutes from one or two tribunals which make interesting reading and also some of the legal documents that were produced concerning the legal status of COs.

[Tony Lund]

I found it interesting that one man mentioned in “Comrades in Conscience” eventually became the mayor.

Arthur Gardiner and several members of the Huddersfield No Conscription Fellowship were imprisoned at Dartmoor for refusing all forms of military service. During the Second World War Arthur Gardiner was a local alderman and magistrate and in 1941 he became the Mayor of Huddersfield.

Tony.

[geraint]

I have absolute respect for those men who conscientiously objected. It took a brave man to swim against the flow; for whatever reason. Thanks for your responses folks.

[NeilEvans]

Conscription, did it go as far as Canada?

Reason i ask is my gt granfather was in Canada 1914-18 and didn't serve.

Neil

[John Gilinsky]

Dear ShropshireMad:

1) Yes indeed conscription was formally and legally introduced into Canada by an act of the Dominion(read federal Parliament in Ottawa) in the summer of 1917. It was to take effect at the end of the fall(read harvest of 1917) of 1917.

2) Yes Canada also had a small but noted number of "conchies." A few of these men were even shipped over in 1918(late) to Great Britain to serve with their British "conchies" who had been imprisoned and some of whom had been brutally treated (beaten - poor food - isoalation...). Canada I think had about 100 to 200 conchies officially in total.

3) A great "secret" in Canada was that at least 100,000 plus "conscriptees" from 1917 - 1918 refused to show up for military service AND that the Dominion Police delegated a special constabulary especially in western Canada to track these men down and bring them in for military service. One famous expatriate British union organizer who was shot dead by one such special constable in the summer of 1918 was Ginger Goodwin causing Canada's first general strike in Vancouver, B.C. in early August 1918.

Hope this clarifies and puts into context your father's presence in Canada and his non-military service during the war. He might have been deemed an essential war worker, been given an exemption by the mushrooming tribunals in Canada (just like in the UK) or simply been overlooked.

John

Toronto

[NeilEvans]

John thats a brilliant answer!

You may remember my gt gt. uncle L. Nuttall, who commited suicide in 1916 (See photo). He was the brother of my gt grandfather in Canada.

Neil

[Magnumbellum]

Whilst I have read several reports in the local Durham papers I have never seen anyone named.

However I did come across the attached photo of seven lads who although objectors enlisted in the NCC.

All their names are on the back with the inscription "yours in god".

John

Could the names of the seven men please be given. Some or all of them could very well be men being sought by Forum members, or members may have information to give.

The men are almost certainly from the same denomination or sect, and the names will almost certainly help to identify the group.

[geraint]

Good to see the thread bumped up - over the last three years, I've expanded my reading of local papers, and again, almost zero in regards to local conscientious objectors. I think that many individuals who had such objections, funnelled their beliefs into the non-arms carrying units. A small theological collage in mid Wales (Bala) saw its whole intake of students serve with the Welsh RAMC in Salonika - I would have expected such an institution to contain some objectors.

On the other hand; did the local papers play the whole thing down and deliberately NOT publish any information on objectors?

[Ron Clifton]

On the other hand; did the local papers play the whole thing down and deliberately NOT publish any information on objectors?

That might well have been the case, Geraint. If only one local newspaper was circulating in your area at the time, the proprietor might well have insisted on not giving COs any publicity.

I assume that you have looked in your local County Record Office for any formal records of the local tribunals?

There is also the possibility that men in your area might have been influenced by one or two local Nonconformist ministers who took the line that refusing all kinds of service was unnecessary and unpatriotic, and encouraged their men to join the RAMC or the NCC, or replace other men in work at home such as agriculture and perhaps quarrying.

Ron

[geraint]

Hi Ron and thanks.

Unfortunately the archives don't have the tribunal reports. One local paper does provide names and reasons, the main one, however, only give the number of men dealt with, and a brief naming of reasons. again neither refer to any objections due to religion nor conscience. The local ministers were proactive regarding the war - two became army chaplains and went to France, the others did chaplaincy (is that a word??) at nearby Kinmel Camp or were amongst the enlisters who visited homes advocating enlistment. They also loom large in the various appeals - red cross, egg appeal, soldiers comfort, smoking concerts and war loans appeals. It would be nice to find at least one local conscientious objector!

[David_Underdown]

Chaplaincy (without a third "a") is a word.

[geraint]

Thank you David! Now corrected!

[Andrew Hesketh]

This is a difficult area. I have come across reference to an 'Abergele 6' of CO's, but I can't find any further details. The local press says nothing at all.

[geraint]

Andrew

Did you come across a Rev D Howell Griffiths, lately a curate at Ruthin, moved to St Asaph/ Abergele, and was chaplain at Kinmel? He committed suicide at his father's house in S Wales Oct/Nov 1918 whilst the "balance of his mind was disturbed by his war work." There's a brief suggestion in the Coroner report that he may have felt his work 'unsuited' to his Christian beliefs. A tentative connection with the Abergele 6 perhaps?

[David_Underdown]

According to David T Youngson's "Greater Love", Griffiths was in Abergele from 1891 - 1894, then spent several years abroad in Australia and South Africa, returning to Wales as Curate of Ruthin with Llanrhydd from 1906 - 1909 when he was appointed Vicar of Bagillt, and then Rector of Nannerch from 1912. He died on 15 December 1917.

[geraint]

Thanks David. Its a book that I've been meaning to buy. Does it say anymore about him? The local paper The Free Press carried the Coroner's Report in late 1918, and was a bit uncertain regarding his positions.

[David_Underdown]

There's half an A4 page on him, much of it concerning confusion over the correct spelling of his name Griffiths/Griffith, and confusion over the death date (the CWGC headstone originally showed 1915). He apparently wrote to his bishop around July 1917 (by inference) saying he was unwell and wished to resign, then nothing until a report of his suicide from the Assistant Chaplain General Western Command, which hints at his suicide being work related. Officer's service record is in WO 339/128574. Buried in a family plot at Usk, father was also a clergyman, and another clergyman, possibly brother, also bured there. Also contians fuller details of the posts he held in Aus and SA, education and so on.

[geraint]

Really quite a long time for reports of a death to be so confused 1915-1918!

Again thanks - it does add a little bit of flesh to his anguish.

Appreciated

Geraint

[Andrew Hesketh]

A very belated bump for this thread. just really to see if anyone has any updates.

I've not much to add - the 'Abergele 6' remain a continuing mystery but some developments....

Kinmel Camp / Abergele are often used as mutually inclusive terrms for the Kinmel Camp army base. I believe, for a variety of reasons, that Kinmel Camp became a focal point for sending many CO's, and I have encountered several references. One of the more interesting is CO who deliberately went to Rhyl to break into shops and thus get arrested to avoid his draft to France ( http://cymru1914.org/en/view/newspaper/3612025/4/ART51 )

Therefore, I now believe that the 'Abergele 6' is a 'Kinmel Camp 6'. If so, the '6' must have been reasonably well known but I am unable to put names to them.

[Andrew Hesketh]

By the way Geraint, Rev D Howell Griffiths.....

His suicide appears to have been a direct result of the death of his son in action earlier in the year. What that man's mind must have been through is impossible to comprehend. I posted to a thread relating to this a few weeks ago but can I find it?

[Magnumbellum]

I've not much to add - the 'Abergele 6' remain a continuing mystery but some developments....

Kinmel Camp / Abergele are often used as mutually inclusive terms for the Kinmel Camp army base. I believe, for a variety of reasons, that Kinmel Camp became a focal point for sending many CO's, and I have encountered several references. One of the more interesting is a CO who deliberately went to Rhyl to break into shops and thus get arrested to avoid his draft to France ( http://cymru1914.org/en/view/newspaper/3612025/4/ART51 )

Therefore, I now believe that the 'Abergele 6' is a 'Kinmel Camp 6'. If so, the '6' must have been reasonably well known but I am unable to put names to them.

I agree that 'Abergele' is often used as shorthand for Kinmel Camp, which, among other things, was used as a base for the Non-Combatant Corps, comprising solely conscientious objectors exempted only from combatant service, meaning that they were deemed to be enlisted in the army, but exempted from handling and using weapons. The men allocated to the NCC fell into two broad groups. The majority, with varying degrees of reluctance, accepted their position and a significant number were drafted to France, to handle non-lethal stores, make roads, work on railways etc; others did similar work at home. A minority of the men allocated as COs to the NCC resisted, leading to court-martial and imprisonment.

A number of both categories passed through Kinmel Camp. Two of the resisting category were among the 42 COs improperly shipped to France in June 1916 to be court-martialled over there, 35 of whom were formally sentenced to death, but the sentences were immediately commuted to ten years' penal servitude. The 35 did not include either of the two from Kinmel Camp, but it did include some from the other three locations from which the other 40 were shipped (Harwich - 17; Richmond - 16; and Seaford - 7).. The Richmond 16, briefly highlighted in the second of Jeremy Paxman's recent BBC1 series, have been celebrated to some extent, and, by extension, one might refer to the Harwich 17, the Seaford 7 and even the less notable Abergele 2, neither of whom was sentenced to death, but only to hard labour.

However, apart from the fact the Abergele 2 would in no way account for the apparent claim of an Abergele 6, the practice of naming a group in the style of, for example, the Shrewsbury 3 (to take a famous case from the 1970s) dates from well after not only the First World War but the Second as well, and probably from the late 1960s. In identifying the supposed Abergele 6 it would be helpful to know exactly when and where was the first known use of that name, and what was the context.

With regard to the report of a claimed conscientious objector supposedly committing a robbery to evade a draft to France, I can only comment that the paper's reticence as to any identifiable detail raises the question whether it is fact or rumour