Guest McCracken Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 My father's uncle, Max Muller, being of German descent, was interned on the Isle of Man during WW1. He died while in internment and I think he was buried there. I'm looking for information on where he is buried, also I'd like to find any information about the internment camp - living conditions, size, etc. I'm also wondering if any records might exist regarding his cause of death etc. I have an old photograph showing a grave marker and date of death (16 July 1918) which I am attaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 I would also like to know if this same camp or area was the same used in WW2 as my grandfather was based here for a period as he was a 'whitecap' Thanks Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 McCracken Here is the info you want... There were 207 German interned civilians buried on th Isle of Man during WW1 in both Douglas Cemetery (20) and Kirk Patrick (St Patrick) Churchyard. They came from the camp at Knockaloe. All the Germans bar one were exhumed and reburied in Cannock Chase German Military Cemetery, Staffordshire in 1960/61 along with the majority (not all) of German casualties in the UK from WW1 and WW2. There are three Max Mullers amongst them but two are German military and the one civilian must be your relative. Max Alfred MULLER Interned German Civilian Died 15.07.18 (date as recorded by CWGC and VdK - is photo clear?) Buried Block 14 Grave 188 This cemetery is cared for by CWGC on behalf of their German equivalent - VdK. The one remaining German internee on the Isle of Man is in Douglas Cemetery. If anyone else wants info on any of the 40,000 foreign nationals in CWGC care worldwide, please let me know as they are not available on the internet database but I have access to the list. CWGC care for all foreign war graves in the UK except the US ones at Cambridge and Brookwood (I also have details of those). PS. Welcome to the Forum. You will get addicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 Hi Terry, Can you please email me the foreign nationals for Langney & Ocklynge Cemetaries? I want to make sure I have got them all before looking in to them in further detail. Cheers Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 On their way to you.. Langney only has the two WW2 Poles. Ocklynge has two WW1 Belgians and a Brazilian - the only Brazilian WW1 war grave in the UK (A naval officer attached to the RAF in WW1). Two USA WW1 casualties have been exhumed and reburied at Brookwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 Cheers in advance Terry. I have not come across the Brazilian one yet (not finished). As you know I have the Poles from Langney and so far found 1 Belgian, 5 canadian and 1 australian in Ocklynge. Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 Ryan The Canadians and Australian obviously do not count as 'Foreign Nationals' in CWGC terms. All Commonwealth troops are excluded from this category as they qualify for full CWGC recognition. As a matter of interest... Langney has only 40 UK burials & no other Commonwealth. Ocklynge has 9 Canadians, 2 South Africans, 6 Australians, 1 Indian as well as 156 UK graves. The cemetery also has the war grave of Lt-Col Oswald FITZGERALD - ADC to Kitchener and who was at his side aboard HMS Hampshire when she went down 05.06.16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Johnson Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 As an "add on" to this. Does anyone know if any records exist of the Germans interned on the IoM during WW1. My grandmothers family were of German origin and I would like to know if any of them were taken to the IoM at anytime. Her brother, Private Frederick KOTTMAN, is the one shown in my signature. Thanks PAUL JOHNSON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 As for the experience of internment, there is a good chapter about this in The Enemy in our Midst: Germans in Britain during the First World War, Panikos Panayi, Berg, 1991. Panayi draws particularly on two sources. The first is the unpublished First World War diaries of Richard Noschke which are in the Department of Documents at the Imperial War Musuem. The other is Time Stood Still: My internment in England 1914-14, Paul Cohen-Portheim, Duckworth, 1931. I don’t know whether Noschke was on the Isle of Man but Cohen-Portheim did spend some time in Knockaloe. There was at least one other internment camp on the Isle of Man, at Douglas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 7 March , 2004 Share Posted 7 March , 2004 As an "add on" to this. Does anyone know if any records exist of the Germans interned on the IoM during WW1. .... Few records survive from WWI. The only source I know is a register of those interned at Douglas. This is held by the Manx National Library and Archive. The library has a very good page of references here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxsapper Posted 9 March , 2004 Share Posted 9 March , 2004 Manx National Heritage main museum in Douglas did have for sale in their shop a booklet that covered internment camps during WW1 and WW2. It is a handy booklet with many photos and information. There were 2 internment camps on the Island during the Great War. The main camp was at Knockaloe in the west of the Island near Peel; now a farming experimental farm and the other being the former Cunningham's Camp; the forerunner of Butlins. The men were in wooden huts and in bell tents.My great grandfather was a camp guard ( the Isle of Man vollunteers)at Cunnigham's camp and I have a photo of him in his uniform; I am also trying to get a capbadge of this unit if anyone knows were I can get one! I am involved in a small miliatry museum on the IOM and we have recently secured 2 orginal knockaloe huts which hopefully will be erected on our site and will contain ww1 items. Please get in touch with me if you are looking for Isle Of Man related items as we may be able to help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Johnson Posted 9 March , 2004 Share Posted 9 March , 2004 Thank you gentlemen for some very informative replies. This will be of great assistance to me. Regards PAUL JOHNSON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest McCracken Posted 10 March , 2004 Share Posted 10 March , 2004 Thank you very much Terry. I was surprised to get an answer so quickly! On closer examination, I believe the correct date is 15 July 1918. The photo isn't too clear. I live in Canada so It's not easy to visit the cemetery. It will have to wait until my next trip to Britain. Will I have any difficult locating the cemetery in Staffordshire? I'd love to get my hands on the books you mention, but expect they may not be easy to locate here in Canada. My grandfather's sister, Mary, was married to Max and the story in the family is she never recovered from the loss of her husband. I think he was a banker and had been living in Ireland for some time before they met and married. They had one daughter Milda. Mother and daughter emigrated to the USA sometime after WW1. Many thanks again for all the information! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 March , 2004 Share Posted 11 March , 2004 Bill You will be able to find Cannock Chase German Military Cemetery without any problem. It is a very large cemetery in the UK Midlands with about 5000 German graves from WW1 and WW2 - also some Austrian graves. The only thing to be careful of is that you don't confuse it with the nearby much smaller Cannock Chase War Cemetery which has 100 Commonwealth graves and a few German graves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman Posted 14 March , 2004 Share Posted 14 March , 2004 The booklet referred to by Manxsapper is "Living with the Wire" edited by Yvonne M. Cresswell and published in 1994 by Manx National Heritage, ISBN 0 901 1106 35 6. It's actually more of a paperback book, 70 pages, many b/w photos. It's 50/50 WW1/WW2. V.good publication gives a real flavour of the times/situation in the camps on the IOM. The telephone number for Manx National Heritage is 00 44 1624 648000, they're very helpful and should be in a position to say whether or not the book is still available. The Manx museum (same number) does hold a number of records re the camps, the reference library is the repository for these. Knockaloe camp was subdivided into a number of sub- camps. It is said to have housed 23,000 prisoners at it's busiest. (The IOM's current population is said to be about 75,000, which is considerably larger than at the start of the 20th century - which perhaps shows what effect such a large influx of persons would have had on the Island). Incidently, before his call up my Great grandfather was the foreman brickmaker for the local brick company, in Peel, which is about 3 miles from the camp site. The company was 12 workers strong prior to war call ups). Contemporary newspaper reports state that upto 1917 the company supplied the camp with 1,000,000 bricks.The camp was only begun after the start of the war, it had previously been farmland. As the accomodation was made up of huts principally constructed of wood, it gives an idea of the scale of the operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest McCracken Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 Thanks Terry! I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate this site. This is my first experience on a forum! I do appreciate reading all the responses though, even if I'm still a novice. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman Posted 15 March , 2004 Share Posted 15 March , 2004 Bill, I visited IOM Museum today. In the "Peel City Guardian and Chronicle" dated Saturday July 27th 1918 is the following report "Alien Inquest On Tuesday week Mr F.M. LaMothe, High-Bailiff conducted inquests on the deaths of three aliens interned at Knockaloe. Max Alfred Meueller, a German, was transferred to Knockaloe on the 5th Oct, 1915, and he died on July 15th inst. Dr McGeagh certified that the cause of death was heart failure; verdict in accordance ......................." In the Island the High Bailiff is a type of stipendiary magistrate, who also acts as the coroner for inquests. Despite what I said to you via PM, it would be usual (as still is) for a Manx Coroner of inquests to sit for a 'death in custody' even when the casualty's doctor is willing to sign a death certificate. Where ist is a death in custody he must sit with a jury. I have read elsewhere that the doctor named was one of those appointed as a camp doctor at Knockaloe. The spelling I have used for the surname of your relative is that which was shown in the article. I understand that you can get a copy of the death certificate (for a fee) from the Isle of Man Public Record Office, e mail address is :-public.records@registry.gov.im I have photocopied the article. Contact me via PM and give me your address if you wish me to forward this onto you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 11 April , 2004 Share Posted 11 April , 2004 If anyone else wants info on any of the 40,000 foreign nationals in CWGC care worldwide, please let me know as they are not available on the internet database but I have access to the list. CWGC care for all foreign war graves in the UK except the US ones at Cambridge and Brookwood (I also have details of those). Terry Do you have anything on the following Free Poles? Polish Air Force Fiedorczyk E. Sgt. Kowalski Z. F/Sgt. Krawczynski E. F/O Nawrocki T. Sgt. Sawiak B.J. F/O Wesolowski M.J. S/Ldr. They were flying from RAF Woodvale in WW2, and are named on the Southport War Memorial. Do you know where they are buried? I have never seen the names of Free European forces on a British memorial before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 April , 2004 Share Posted 11 April , 2004 Here they are...all together FORMBY (OUR LADY OF COMPASSION) ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCHYARD - Lancashire FIEDORCZUK, Airman, EUGENIUSZ, P0328. Polish Air Force. 15th August 1942. Age 23. Grave G.A.17 KOWALSKI, Airman, ZYGMUNT, 780689. Polish Air Force. 21st March 1944. Age 22. Grave H.B.2 KRAWCZYNSKI, Airman, EDMUND, P.0761. Polish Air Force. 21st December 1941. Age 28. Grave G.A.Joint 15 NAWROCKI, Airman, TADEUSZ T, P784110. Polish Air Force. 19th July 1942. Age 28. Grave G.A.16 SAWIAK, Airman, BOLESLAW JOZEF, P.0867. Polish Air Force. 23rd August 1942. Age 23. Grave G.A.18 WESOLOWSKI, Airman, MARIAN JAN, P.0603. Commander 308 Sqdn. Polish Air Force. 9th January 1942. Age 28. Grave G.A.Joint 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 13 April , 2004 Share Posted 13 April , 2004 Here they are...all together FORMBY (OUR LADY OF COMPASSION) ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCHYARD - Lancashire FIEDORCZUK, Airman, EUGENIUSZ, P0328. Polish Air Force. 15th August 1942. Age 23. Grave G.A.17 KOWALSKI, Airman, ZYGMUNT, 780689. Polish Air Force. 21st March 1944. Age 22. Grave H.B.2 KRAWCZYNSKI, Airman, EDMUND, P.0761. Polish Air Force. 21st December 1941. Age 28. Grave G.A.Joint 15 NAWROCKI, Airman, TADEUSZ T, P784110. Polish Air Force. 19th July 1942. Age 28. Grave G.A.16 SAWIAK, Airman, BOLESLAW JOZEF, P.0867. Polish Air Force. 23rd August 1942. Age 23. Grave G.A.18 WESOLOWSKI, Airman, MARIAN JAN, P.0603. Commander 308 Sqdn. Polish Air Force. 9th January 1942. Age 28. Grave G.A.Joint 15 Thanks for that Terry The dates of death, and place of burial, are interesting. It now looks as if only Marian Wesolowski and Jan Krawczynski were in 308 “City of Krakow” Fighter Squadron, as the unit moved south to Exeter on April 1, 1942. I assume that other Polish units were based at RAF Woodvale later in the war, and will now see what I can find out about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 1 October , 2005 Share Posted 1 October , 2005 I have just found this old thread. My wife's father was interned on the Isle of Man during WWII. He was a Japanese national. Any further help with the camp during the war would be appreciated. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 5 October , 2005 Share Posted 5 October , 2005 Pioneering archaeologist Gerhard Bersu was also interned there - excavated some key sites on the island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman Posted 26 February , 2010 Share Posted 26 February , 2010 I have just found this old thread. My wife's father was interned on the Isle of Man during WWII. He was a Japanese national. Any further help with the camp during the war would be appreciated. Regards David Search amazon or the like for a paperback called "Island of barbed wire", tells the story of internment camps in the IOM in WWII regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skypilot Posted 24 March , 2010 Share Posted 24 March , 2010 There were a number of camps during WW2 on the island, not just one. As has been mentioned, Island of Barbed Wire by Connery Chappell is the best place to start. See here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Island-Barbed-Wire...0401&sr=8-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meandkudos@hotmail.com Posted 18 May , 2011 Share Posted 18 May , 2011 My great grandfather Alexander M Schrick was interned on the Isle of Man. I have found his death recorded online as Ware, Hertfordshire in 1917. Everything had been hushed up in the family, probably through embarrassment? It only came to light after my grandparents died. Alexander's wife changed hers and my granfather's names by deed poll. Basically that is all we know, he was arrested in Hull, in a public Houses, while his son went on to join the navy - underage - and receive a citation. Ironic really! If you can locate any information on this gentleman, you will make me very happy. I have had a bee in my bonnet about him for many years now. I don't suppose there is any way to find out his cause of death? He was 56 years old. Many thanks, Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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