Pointers on grandfathers service please?

[martiny]

I have very little information on my grandfathers service, except snippets he told my mother, and would like to get some idea of which battalion he may have served in if at all possible. I cannot find any records of his on Ancestry, but have his MIC from TNA and also his Z21 card, medals and cap badge.

Alfred Edward Barton was born 19 April 1899 in Luton. He joined the Bedfordshire Regiment on 5 June 1914 as Pte 33782 while his home address was 26 Henry Street, Luton. (There is an AE Barton from 13 Henry Street on Ancestry - it is not he).

I am told he joined as a regular and signed on for 5 years. He was 15 at the time.

He spoke of being at Mons, and that after the battle he and his comrades wandered around for many days trying to find where the battalion had gone.

He was wounded in 1917 (I think at Ypres, but this is a hazy memory). He received a shrapnel splinter in the thigh and had to walk 2 miles in the trenches to reach the aid station. A postcard was sent to his family, who had no idea he had joined up, to advise of the wound. Being such loving parents they grassed him up for joining under age, although by this time he was 18. He was also gassed at some point.

He was later transferred to the Cameronians as Pte 36504 (his MIC states Sco Rifles). His medals were awarded while he was in the Bedfordshires (they are stamped as such) and his demob card states Nil authorised prior to 11.11.18. I had the impression that he was transferred away from the Bedfordshires as a punishment for joining under age, but having researched the Bedforshires a little it could have been because he was in a Service Battalion which disbanded at the time.

He said he was at Tincourt(?) when the war ended - digging turnips out of a frozen field when the bells pealed announcing the end of hostilities. He also said he went to Ireland after the war with the Cameronians, but I don't know where.

He was Disembodied from the 2nd Scottish Rifles on 13.3.1919 according to the Z21 card that I have. Why would this have been? Reduction in size of the Battalion, as the 2nd Scots Rifles were still in existence, I believe?

The medals he received were the BWM and Victory Medal. He did not receive a Star from 1914 or 14-15, which I would have expected if he'd been at Mons.

The entry on the MIC reads Roll: D/103 B12 Page: 1337.

If anyone can shed any light on which battalion he may have been in or give me any pointers on reference sources I'd be most grateful.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The actual Medal Roll [D/103 B12]should show his Battalions,His medals were issued impressed to the Bedfords from the Scottish Rifles{Cameronians} Rolls,as this {Beds} would have been the unit he first served overseas* with{finding a Division that both Battalions of Beds & Scottish R; served together might be a useful indication of his Battalions as often surplus men from one Battalion in a Division were used to reinforce depleted Battalions of another in the same Dvn.{*Medals are as a general rule issued from the Rolls of the unit last served with Overseas.}

His number would indicate a later than suggested enlistment & definitely a post 1915 embarkation to the Front.

his mention of Mons would indicate a later involvement rather than a 1914 one...

There does not appear to be a Service or Pension record surviving on Ancestry & his MiC hasnt as yet been put on that site.

[martiny]

Thank you.

The date of enlistment is as given on the demob card.

Where can I view the Medal Roll? At Kew?

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Yes..

Good Luck

[martiny]

Many thanks.

[martiny]

My grandfather joined the Bedfordshire Regiment in June 1914, aged 15. Service number 33782.

 

His MIC does not state which battalion he was in. His service record is lost or destroyed.

 

He finished the war in 2nd Battalion Scottish Rifles number 36504, having been wounded, hospitalised and transferred on recovery. This I believe is when it was discovered he had joined up under age, but was now over 18.

 

The medal roll for Scottish Rifles states he was in 17 Battalion Beds, but it appears this did not exist.

 

He received the Victory Medal and British War Medal, but not the 1914 - 1915 Star. 

 

I recall him telling me that he was at Mons and Ypres, but not on the Somme.

 

A couple of things I would like to know:

 

Is there any way to tie his service number to a battalion in the Bedfordshires?

 

Apart from him not being in France and Flanders in 1914-1915 could the reason for not awarding the Star be that he was under age at the time?

 

If anyone can assist I would be most grateful.

 

 

 

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, martiny said:

My grandfather joined the Bedfordshire Regiment in June 1914, aged 15. Service number 33782.

 

It's important to sort out the facts from the family legend for this Bedfordshire Regiment man, so how much of this have you been able to confirm?

 

33782 for instance was not a pre-war Bedfordshire Regiment service number.

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/03/the-bedfordshire-regiment-1st-2nd.html

 

Hopefully one of the Bedfordshire Regiments experts will be along shortly to give a more accurate date. He could quite legally have joined the peace time Regular Army in June 1914, with his parents \ guardians permission, but he could not serve in a Theatre of War. It was not uncommon for "sons of the Regiment", (orphaned children of deceased or disabled servicemen) to be taken on the establishment as musicians. Although there was some rumblings on the far side of the continent very few people in the United Kingdom thought we were on the verge of a major war in June 1914. so an enlistment then would be more run of the mill.

 

2 hours ago, martiny said:

The medal roll for Scottish Rifles states he was in 17 Battalion Beds, but it appears this did not exist.

 

Updating of service records were done at offices rather than within the regiment and the depot that dealt with the Scottish Rifles would have been different to the one for the Bedfordshire Regiment so the records would have been transferred in. Combine a lack of familiarity with both the old unit and the practices at the old office and add a quite often slap-dash approach to producing the Rolls and Medal Index cards, then all sorts of errors can slip in. A particularly common one arises with Battalion numbers. At the start of the British involvement in the War the Territorial Force Battalions the Bedfordshires was the 5th. Those men had signed up for UK defence only although a few had also agreed to Imperial Defence as well. In the opening months of the year those men and new recruits were give the option to serve anywhere overseas. Those who agreed became part of the first line Battalion, the 1/5th, those who didn't became the 2/5th and those held as future drafts for the 1/5th became the 3/5th.

 

So far, so good. What isn't so widely recognised is that when the new wartime only service Battalions were authorised, it wasn't clear whether they too would need to provide their own reserves. So the 7th Battalion of the Bedfordshire Regiment, for example, would be styled the 1/7th in expectation there might be a 2/7th. It doesn't take much imagination to see how on an individual soldiers records that could be mis-read as 17.

 

3 hours ago, martiny said:

I recall him telling me that he was at Mons and Ypres, but not on the Somme.

 

There were battles at all three locations in 1918 as well as over the earlier course of the war.

 

3 hours ago, martiny said:

Apart from him not being in France and Flanders in 1914-1915 could the reason for not awarding the Star be that he was under age at the time?

 

I think I've only across one instance of looking at surviving service records for a young men going out pre-1916 to France and then being reclaimed by his parents as underage. This was documented on his records with the notation that he was being discharged because he had made a false statement on enlistment. On the face of it that was a dishonourable discharge and indeed it initially stopped him receiving the 1914/15 Star. However he went out again when he reached the right age and unfortunately died. A subsequent Army Order reinstated his entitlement. I don't know how widespread this was - certainly after an initial flurry of rejections for a variety of military offences, the War Office seems to moderated it's stance and reinstated entitlement. So if he in France & Flanders on 1914-15 then one possible reason is that he didn't follow up any initial rejection of his entitlement.

 

3 hours ago, martiny said:

Is there any way to tie his service number to a battalion in the Bedfordshires?

 

Looking for surviving service records of men with nearby service numbers to see if you can establish a pattern

Even if they don't have surviving service records, look to see if they were awarded the Silver War Badge. At a minimum the related Silver War Badge Roll (Ancestry only) would show date of enlistment and once again might help establish a pattern

Check the Scottish Rifles British War Medal and Victory Medal Roll (Ancestry only) to see if you can establish if he was part of a draft from the Bedfordshire Regiment. Surviving service records for members of that draft would give you a Battalion number.

Unless his Battalion was disbanded, men did not routinely move between Battalions while serving in a Theatre of War. The most likely explanation is that he was wounded \ accidentally injured \ fell ill or had health problems that required him to be medically evacuated back as far as the coast and possibly even the UK. On recovery he would be posted to where the need was greatest, which was very seldom his old unit.If he was wounded then he will appear on a Casualty List. It may be possible to work out from the details of the other members of the Bedfordshire Regiment on the same list to work out which battalion(s) they were serving with.

 

Hope that gets you started,

Peter

 

[HTSCF Fareham]

5 hours ago, martiny said:

The medal roll for Scottish Rifles states he was in 17 Battalion Beds, but it appears this did not exist.

 

I'm assuming that this is the document that you are refering to?

 

via Ancestry

[martiny]

2 hours ago, HTSCF Fareham said:

 

I'm assuming that this is the document that you are refering to?

 

via Ancestry

yes

[martiny]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

 

It's important to sort out the facts from the family legend for this Bedfordshire Regiment man, so how much of this have you been able to confirm?

 

33782 for instance was not a pre-war Bedfordshire Regiment service number.

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/03/the-bedfordshire-regiment-1st-2nd.html

 

Hopefully one of the Bedfordshire Regiments experts will be along shortly to give a more accurate date. He could quite legally have joined the peace time Regular Army in June 1914, with his parents \ guardians permission, but he could not serve in a Theatre of War. It was not uncommon for "sons of the Regiment", (orphaned children of deceased or disabled servicemen) to be taken on the establishment as musicians. Although there was some rumblings on the far side of the continent very few people in the United Kingdom thought we were on the verge of a major war in June 1914. so an enlistment then would be more run of the mill.

 

 

Updating of service records were done at offices rather than within the regiment and the depot that dealt with the Scottish Rifles would have been different to the one for the Bedfordshire Regiment so the records would have been transferred in. Combine a lack of familiarity with both the old unit and the practices at the old office and add a quite often slap-dash approach to producing the Rolls and Medal Index cards, then all sorts of errors can slip in. A particularly common one arises with Battalion numbers. At the start of the British involvement in the War the Territorial Force Battalions the Bedfordshires was the 5th. Those men had signed up for UK defence only although a few had also agreed to Imperial Defence as well. In the opening months of the year those men and new recruits were give the option to serve anywhere overseas. Those who agreed became part of the first line Battalion, the 1/5th, those who didn't became the 2/5th and those held as future drafts for the 1/5th became the 3/5th.

 

So far, so good. What isn't so widely recognised is that when the new wartime only service Battalions were authorised, it wasn't clear whether they too would need to provide their own reserves. So the 7th Battalion of the Bedfordshire Regiment, for example, would be styled the 1/7th in expectation there might be a 2/7th. It doesn't take much imagination to see how on an individual soldiers records that could be mis-read as 17.

 

 

There were battles at all three locations in 1918 as well as over the earlier course of the war.

 

 

I think I've only across one instance of looking at surviving service records for a young men going out pre-1916 to France and then being reclaimed by his parents as underage. This was documented on his records with the notation that he was being discharged because he had made a false statement on enlistment. On the face of it that was a dishonourable discharge and indeed it initially stopped him receiving the 1914/15 Star. However he went out again when he reached the right age and unfortunately died. A subsequent Army Order reinstated his entitlement. I don't know how widespread this was - certainly after an initial flurry of rejections for a variety of military offences, the War Office seems to moderated it's stance and reinstated entitlement. So if he in France & Flanders on 1914-15 then one possible reason is that he didn't follow up any initial rejection of his entitlement.

 

 

Looking for surviving service records of men with nearby service numbers to see if you can establish a pattern

Even if they don't have surviving service records, look to see if they were awarded the Silver War Badge. At a minimum the related Silver War Badge Roll (Ancestry only) would show date of enlistment and once again might help establish a pattern

Check the Scottish Rifles British War Medal and Victory Medal Roll (Ancestry only) to see if you can establish if he was part of a draft from the Bedfordshire Regiment. Surviving service records for members of that draft would give you a Battalion number.

Unless his Battalion was disbanded, men did not routinely move between Battalions while serving in a Theatre of War. The most likely explanation is that he was wounded \ accidentally injured \ fell ill or had health problems that required him to be medically evacuated back as far as the coast and possibly even the UK. On recovery he would be posted to where the need was greatest, which was very seldom his old unit.If he was wounded then he will appear on a Casualty List. It may be possible to work out from the details of the other members of the Bedfordshire Regiment on the same list to work out which battalion(s) they were serving with.

 

Hope that gets you started,

Peter

Obviously a lot in here, thanks.

 

There is no doubt he joined up in June 1914. Perhaps he joined a VB then and transferred later. I believe 3rd bn men transferred to 2nd.

 

There was no 1/7th bn. I have been down that route already.

 

 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by martiny

[martiny]

33782 is missing from the Bedfordshire Regiment medal roll

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5119/41629_636897_10997-00098?pid=5633618&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D5119%26h%3D5633618%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DVVU760%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=VVU760&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.216559056.778210586.1589392368-226765782.1585588778#?imageId=41629_636897_10954-00090

 

but this gives me good pointer

[PRC]

41 minutes ago, martiny said:

There is no doubt he joined up in June 1914

 

As there is no surviving service record and no Silver War Badge awarded, can you share the documentary evidence that puts this beyond doubt - it will help ensure we are all looking in the right places.

 

Thanks,

Peter

[RussT]

We know his number 33782 was allotted to him upon joining the 3rd Reserve Bn of the Beds on 01/01/1917 just before being posted to France where he was most likely posted to the 8th Bn Beds alongside a batch of men similarly numbered.

 

Some of these men were previously with TF Reserve Bns of the Beds (e.g. 5th with corresponding 4 digit numbers) prior to being posted to the 3rd Bn and re-numbered. So he may well have been similarly posted and had prior service in a TF Bn - but without a record we can't say for certain

 

They were posted to the 17/IBD in France, and this is likely to be the reason for the error on his medal roll showing 17th Bn, which did not exist.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[MaxD]

With regard to looking up the numbers.  Ancestry only appears to have the 1914 Star and 1914/1915 Star roll for the Bedfordshire Regiment.  It should have the BW&V rolls but they don't appear to be there. Equally, they have the BW&V rolls for the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment rolls but not the 1914 Star or 1914/1915 Star rolls.

 

8 Bn, as Russ suggests, did have a number of men starting 33, indeed a very quick look shows 33795,33789 and 33785 lost their lives in 1917.  I haven't yet been able to find a consistency of enlistment.  Haven't done a comprehensive trawl though.

 

 

Max

 

 

 

[martiny]

55 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

As there is no surviving service record and no Silver War Badge awarded, can you share the documentary evidence that puts this beyond doubt - it will help ensure we are all looking in the right places.

 

Thanks,

Peter

It's stated on his Z21

[martiny]

3 hours ago, RussT said:

We know his number 33782 was allotted to him upon joining the 3rd Reserve Bn of the Beds on 01/01/1917 just before being posted to France where he was most likely posted to the 8th Bn Beds alongside a batch of men similarly numbered.

 

Some of these men were previously with TF Reserve Bns of the Beds (e.g. 5th with corresponding 4 digit numbers) prior to being posted to the 3rd Bn and re-numbered. So he may well have been similarly posted and had prior service in a TF Bn - but without a record we can't say for certain

 

They were posted to the 17/IBD in France, and this is likely to be the reason for the error on his medal roll showing 17th Bn, which did not exist.

 

Regards

 

Russ

Thanks Russ

 

Where does the allocation info come from?

 

Now you mention 5th battalion... Checking the National Roll of men that served in the great war it says he joined 5th Battalion in 1914. As you suggest he may well have then been transferred to 3rd battalion along with the previously numbered block of men.

 

Would he have gone to France only after that transfer? 

 

 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by martiny

[martiny]

13 minutes ago, MaxD said:

With regard to looking up the numbers.  Ancestry only appears to have the 1914 Star and 1914/1915 Star roll for the Bedfordshire Regiment.  It should have the BW&V rolls but they don't appear to be there. Equally, they have the BW&V rolls for the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment rolls but not the 1914 Star or 1914/1915 Star rolls.

 

8 Bn, as Russ suggests, did have a number of men starting 33, indeed a very quick look shows 33795,33789 and 33785 lost their lives in 1917.  I haven't yet been able to find a consistency of enlistment.  Haven't done a comprehensive trawl though.

 

 

Max

 

 

 

Thanks Max, much appreciated. 

 

I have his medals, and there is no Star so I think it unlikely he went overseas in 1915. 

 

I thought the Beds and Herts was formed post war by amalgamating the 2?

[MaxD]

You are right (1919) which may explain how the medal award rolls are laid out.

 

Max

[corisande]

The OP did put a bit more on his grandfather on the original thread that he posted on basically the same subject

 

 

[RussT]

21 hours ago, martiny said:

Now you mention 5th battalion... Checking the National Roll of men that served in the great war it says he joined 5th Battalion in 1914. As you suggest he may well have then been transferred to 3rd battalion along with the previously numbered block of men.

 

Would he have gone to France only after that transfer? 

 

 

 

Yes, posted to the 3rd Bn, which was a reserve unit in the UK, then posted to France in a draft to 17/IBD - then a few weeks later posted to an active service Bn - in my view the 8th Bn.

 

 

Regards

 

Russ

[martiny]

23 hours ago, RussT said:

 

Yes, posted to the 3rd Bn, which was a reserve unit in the UK, then posted to France in a draft to 17/IBD - then a few weeks later posted to an active service Bn - in my view the 8th Bn.

 

 

Regards

 

Russ

Thanks Russ I really appreciate your input.

[Donald D]

From the Luton AVL there is a Arthur Ernest Barton living at 26 Henry Street, possibly a brother. There are no other names for No 26, so I can only presume he had either moved away from that address or that the relevant details had not reached the local authority.

[martiny]

15 hours ago, Donald D said:

From the Luton AVL there is a Arthur Ernest Barton living at 26 Henry Street, possibly a brother. There are no other names for No 26, so I can only presume he had either moved away from that address or that the relevant details had not reached the local authority.

Thanks Donald

 

Albert is listed at 20 Henry Street, under his Scottish Rifles number 36504.

 

Arthur was his elder brother. 26 Henry Street was the family home.

 

 

Edited 24 May , 2020 by martiny

[Donald D]

7 hours ago, martiny said:

Thanks Donald

 

Albert is listed at 20 Henry Street, under his Scottish Rifles number 36504.

 

Arthur was his elder brother. 26 Henry Street was the family home.

 

 

There was also William, Edward,Albert and Walter Barton at No 13 Henry Street. My Grandmother had family in Peache Street, which was the next street down towards the town centre.