John Bernard Shrive

[SteveE]

All

Still more information to find and avenues to explore. If I can find the names of those who went out on the second draft to East Africa I am sure that the picture will become clearer.

Mike

I would recommend you get the book "Brothers In War" by Michael Walsh from your local library.

The book details the war as recorded in letters home from eight brothers, five of whom died. One of the five was Charles Reeve Beechey and his service mirrors that of John Bernard to a large extent, he was part of the same draft (it was the fourth draft not second by the way) and died of wounds received in the same action as John Bernard.

Regards

Steve

[Stebie9173]

Mike,

Would you like to try posting the Tom Shrive picture again with your improved photo posting skills, and I'll see what I can make out on it.

Steve.

[reevemjr]

Mike,

Would you like to try posting the Tom Shrive picture again with your improved photo posting skills, and I'll see what I can make out on it.

Steve.

Steve

Tom Shrive and colleague at Dalhousie, Punjab.

Thanks for re-examining the photo. Tom is the one standing.

My knowledge of uniforms is nonexistent but I assume the Army colleague is in the same regiment. The photographer was "Ramje. P E, photographer Dalhousie"

Tom's Army service record states - 1905, Oct. 25 -1911 May15 India, army service '5years142days'

Regards

Mike

[Stebie9173]

Mike, the sitting man is in his parade uniform - red tunic, deep blue trousers, white collar and "piping" type cuffs. The piping cuffs were in the middle of switching over to solid white cuffs in the mid-1900s. He has a "swagger stick" in his right hand, and solar topee "pith helmet". His medal looks like the India General Service 1895 medal with two clasps - the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment were awarded the clasps for the Tirah campaign in Nov/Dec 1897, usually with 2 or 3 clasps. The medal may also be the Queens South Africa medal, but the ribbon is normally less dark with more contrast.

Tom is wearing tropical service dress, with trousers rather than shorts, which you often see. He has what looks like a marksman badge on his left sleeve. He doesn't yet have his 1st Good Conduct Badge (a large upward pointing chevron below the marksman badge). This means he is either less than two years into his army career, or he has been a naughty boy! (or both.... )

There was definitely a draft from the 2nd Battalion that left England for India on 22nd October 1905. That's one of the earliest Drafts that he could have been on, but I know of at least one man joining just after Tom Shrive who was in the Draft.

5 years and 142 days takes him to 15th MARCH 1911 rather than 15th May 1911. That (the 15th March 1911) is the day that the entire 1st Battalion arrived back in England from India (the 1st Battalion in one form or another had been in India since 1892). A large proportion of the men of the battalion arriving back in England at Devonport were granted 6 weeks leave (23 shillings and 6 pence rail fare back to Peterborough!), and I suspect that Tom Shrive would have been due some leave by then...

The article stating service of 13 years would suggest that he may have served all the way through. Do you have a full service record for him, or a discharge certificate, or summary of service from the MOD ?

Steve.

[reevemjr]

Mike, the sitting man is in his parade uniform - red tunic, deep blue trousers, white collar, and "piping" type cuffs. The piping cuffs were in the middle of switching over to solid white cuffs in the mid-1900s. He has a "swagger stick" in his left hand, and solar topee "pith helmet". His medal looks like the India General Service 1895 medal with two clasps - the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment were awarded the clasps for the Tirah campaign in Nov/Dec 1897, usually with 2 or 3 clasps. The medal may also be the Queens South Africa medal, but the ribbon is normally less dark with more contrast.

Tom is wearing tropical service dress, with trousers rather than shorts, which you often see. He has what looks like a marksman badge on his left sleeve. He doesn't yet have his 1st Good Conduct Badge (a large upward pointing chevron below the marksman badge). This means he is either less than two years into his army career, or he has been a naught boy! (or both.... )

There was definitely a draft from the 2nd Battalion that left England for India on 22nd October 1905. That's one of the earliest Drafts that he could have been on, but I know of at least one man joining just after Tom Shrive who was in the Draft.

5 years and 142 days takes him to 15th MARCH 1911 rather than 15th May 1911. That (the 15th March 1911) is the day that the entire 1st Battalion arrived back in England from India (the 1st Battalion in one form or another had been in India since 1892). A large proportion of the men of the battalion arriving back in England at Devonport were granted 6 weeks leave (23 shillings and 6 pence rail fare back to Peterborough!), and I suspect that Tom Shrive would have been due some leave by then...

The article stating service of 13 years would suggest that he may have served all the way through. Do you have a full service record for him, or a discharge certificate, or summary of service from the MOD ?

Steve.

Steve

Just a quick reply. A really wonderful analysis and information. I have looked again at the dates on my computer and can see you are right, it should read 15 March 11. Tom's next period of service was 1911 0316 - 1915 0530 Home, army service ' 4years76days'. He then was given leave to visit Canada.

Can't tell you any more until see if I have any more written records.

Regards

Mike

[Stebie9173]

His period of home service takes him up to the 31st May 1915, which is the date when the 5th Battalion of the Northamptons embarked to France with 12th Division.

This seems to suggest that he served in the UK with the 1st Battalion (or perhaps in a training or admin job with either the Depot at Northampton or the Special Reserve) in England until the outbreak of war, but for some reason did not join the 1st Battalion when the headed to France.

Incidentally, his six weeks leave is probably the reason he appears on the 1911 census at Peterborough rather than Devonport.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Another small article from the Peterborough Advertiser of 2nd October 1915.

Steve.

[reevemjr]

Another small article from the Peterborough Advertiser of 2nd October 1915.

Steve.

Steve

You really have found the story of the Shrive family during the war. The family always said Richard was 'commissioned in the field' and I now know the source of that belief. They made it sound like he was knighted by the King on the field of battle.

I was told that he had been asked once before to consider a commission but he had refused probably because of the cost and the change in his relationship with the men. On this occasion he was given no choice and told he must take it. I believe at this time in the war there was a great shortage of officers at 2nd Lieut. and Lieut. because of the losses at the front, and the army was quickly identifying those it thought most suitable. Whether he had been first offered the commission before the 121 (H) battery left for the front I do not know. But, he was one of those young men who did not wish to miss the action and who asked a number of times through his commanding officer to be sent on active service. This is why he was posted to the 121(H) from 18 Coy. RGA Sheerness.

I have found on the net a 121 (H) Battery diary by one of the drivers for that battery transcribed by his son I believe (Rhodes). This has been a great help but of course it does not target events quite from the gunners point of view as does the 91st diary. When he did go to 'Kinghorne' 'to kit out' he found that the allowances given by the army did not cover his expences, and money was short. however he did marry my grandmother in Peterborough in 1915 before being sent to the front with the 91st.

I have his copy of the 91st diary by Major Christian printed in 1920 so if you need any details from it let me know.

I am going to send the newspaper articles to his only surviving daughter who is now in her 80s and I know she will be delighted to see them.

Thank you

Mike

[Stebie9173]

I stumbled across that one by accident, Mike! I wasn't even looking for anything on them. I'll keep an eye out for anything more, as their exploits do seeem to be cropping up quite often.

It's nice when you find an article or two that help "pull the threads together" a bit!

Steve.

[Guest]

John Bernard Shrive. In 2016 Kings Cliffe Heritage published my book "All the Kings Cliffe Men" which tells the story of all the men from Kings Cliffe who served in WW1.This includes stories of the four Shrive men. I am in the process of completing an enlarged and updated 2nd edition which I hope to publish on 11/11/2018. I would really appreciate it if I could have permission to use the information and photographs in this string. Also contact with the family members to get the maximum data on the four men's lives outside of the army would be greatly appreciated.

I have only just joined the forum having been alerted to the information.

Mike H 

[aidan s]

hi all im a relative of tom shrive my great great grandfather,any info get in touch!

Edited 12 October , 2018 by aidan s

[Stebie9173]

Aidan, I am not sure whether you are seeking information or offering information, but assuming you are seeking it, I have put together the information that can be garnered from various sources. he doesn't have a publicly released WW1 service record but I believe his record to be held by the MOD. This is available in full to next-of-kin relatives with a summary available to others. I don't know if Mike (who has posted above) has a copy of the full records or not.

 

Tom Shrive

• Born on 26 November 1884 per death register index, on 26 October 1884 per 1939 Register, or on 13 December 1884 per 1921 Army Records index,
• Enlisted in January 1905, age 20, and joined the Northamptonshire Regiment
• Allotted Regimental Number 7614
• Posted to the Depot at Northampton for basic training
• Transferred to the 2nd Battalion at Bordon for duty in the UK in about May 1905 (assuming full period of basic training)
• Transferred to the 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment for duty in India on 25 October 1915
• Served in India from 25 Oct 1905 to 15 March 1911 for 5 years and 142 days
• The 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment were based at Jullundur from November 1903 to March 1908 when they moved to Poona (modern Pune, near Bombay/Mumbai).
• Tom Shrive is pictured at Dalhouise in northern India. This was a summer "hill station" that parts of the battalion were sometimes posted to. The mountainous area meant that the summer temperatures were more bearable at that elevation than in the lowlands.
• Appointed as a Lance-Corporal
• The 1st Battalion arrived back in England on 15th March 1911 and most of the men were granted six weeks leave/furlough at home.
• Tom Shrive appears on the 1911 Census, taken a couple of weeks later, at 23 Wood Street, Peterborough - a Lance-Corporal in the Army.
• Tom Shrive "age 27" embarked at Liverpool bound for Canada aboard the S.S. Tunisian on 14 June 1912 - I am not sure whether this is him or how it fits into everything else.
• Served in the UK from 16 March 1911 to 30 May 1915
• Promoted to Corporal
• He would have been entitled to transfer to the Reserve in 1912 (still officially in the army, but at home in a civilian job with reduced Army pay and an obligation to return to the army) but appears not to take up that option, gaining permission to continue in the army for 12 years (from enlistment)
• Possibly posted away from 1st Battalion at some point between 1911 and 1914 and therefore did not go overseas in August 1914.
• Posted to the 5th Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment as a Corporal, at some point between the battalion being formed in September 1914 and embarkation overseas in May 1915. He probably joined at the earlier date rather than the latter
• Of 30 Westwood Street, Peterborough in early 1915, a Corporal in the 5th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment according to the Peterborough Mayor's Roll of Honour
• Embarked to France with 5th Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment on 31 May 1915
• Tom Shrive had been appointed as a Lance Sergeant by the time of embarkation, still a substantive (permanent) Corporal, but with the duties of a Lance-Sergeant
• First gas casualties occur in the 5th Battalion in early July 1915
• Listed as Wounded as a Lance-Sergeant in the Times casualty lists of 28th July 1915 (and mentioned in report in local press on 2 October 1915)
• Wounded in the thigh at the Yser canal / Turco Farm / Fusilier Farm area near Boesinghe north of Ypres on 5 July 1915
• Evacuated to England and treated in hospital at Bury St Edmunds by late July 1915
• Returned to France at an unknown later date
• Promoted to Sergeant
• Tom Shrive's initial period of enlistment of 12 years would have expired in January 1917 but would have been extended by one year to January 1918 due to being at war.
• Wounded in late November 1917
• Reported as Wounded as a Sergeant per the Official Casualty List of 5-1-1918 (Kings Cliffe) - the wounding would have probably been during the German counter attack at Cambrai on 30 November / 1 December 1917
• Extended period of enlistment of 13 years expired in January 1918
• Probably extended period of enlistment up to 21 years (to expire in January 1926)
• The 1918 Absent Voters List (a register for voters that would not be at home for the December 1918 General Election) shows him as "Shrive, Tom, West Street, King's Cliffe, 7614, Sgt., 1st Northants." Note that this shows him with 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment. I am not convinced that he would have transferred from the 5th Battalion - a specialist Pioneer battalion - back to the 1st Battalion after four years as a Pioneer N.C.O.
• Still serving in April 1920 when British War Medal and Victory Medal issued
• His later employment (see 1939 Register) would suggest that he had some sort of administrative role at the Northampton Depot
• Probably numbered 5875030 in August 1920
• Married to Daisy Gardner in 1921
• Son, John Shrive, born at Northampton in 1924
• Likely to have finally left the army in 1926
• Daughter, Margaret J Shrive, born at Northampton in 1930
• Tom Shrive's wife, Daisy, died in the summer of 1939
• At 115 Adnitt Road, Northampton, widowed, born 26-10-1884, a War Department Clerk and Army Pensioner, in Sep 1939 (1939 Register on transcribed on Ancestry as "Tom Shire")
• Died on 19-3-1974 at Hardingstone (of 63 The Warren, Hardingstone)

 

There is a Ministry of Defence file for a man that is almost certainly the right man (though the date of birth is not the same). This man was the 30th man renumbered in the Northamptonshire Regiment in 1920 so would have been serving already.

 

Item code: ADT000529322

Item type: File

Regimental number: 5875030

Name: SHRIVE T

Date of birth: 1884-12-13
 

The number above falls at the very start of the number range (5875001 to 5931000) that was allocated to the Northamptonshire Regiment in 1920.

 

 

Steve.

Edited 14 October , 2018 by Stebie9173

[aidan s]

thanks steve! very much appreciated,im looking for as much info as possible tom shrive died 2 years before i was born,his son was richard shrive my grandad possibly john richard shrive? 

[Stebie9173]

Because he appears to have served on after the war, his service record is still held by the MOD - at least I am 95% sure that the service record for the man numbered 5875030 is his. This can be ordered from the MOD archivists for a fee. This would fill in the gaps from above (and correct any errors I have made!) and allow you to get the full picture of his service. This can be applied for here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

 

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

 

 

Steve

[aidan s]

very much appreciated,thanks steve!

[Jane Dixon]

Hi guys, I am reading this with great interest, Oliver Shrive was my Grandfather, I am only just starting to research him, but his brothers stories are fascinating.

[Jane Dixon]

On 12/02/2018 at 17:32, mikedot said:

John Bernard Shrive. In 2016 Kings Cliffe Heritage published my book "All the Kings Cliffe Men" which tells the story of all the men from Kings Cliffe who served in WW1.This includes stories of the four Shrive men. I am in the process of completing an enlarged and updated 2nd edition which I hope to publish on 11/11/2018. I would really appreciate it if I could have permission to use the information and photographs in this string. Also contact with the family members to get the maximum data on the four men's lives outside of the army would be greatly appreciated.

I have only just joined the forum having been alerted to the information.

Mike H 

Hi Mike,

A bit too late for your book, but I am Oliver Shrive's granddaughter, his daughter Ivy is still alive living near Oundle, I will check out your book, best wishes

Jane Dixon

[Stebie9173]

I am not sure what you have on Oliver Shrive, so I have summarised what has been posted already on the Forum about Oliver's army career:

 

Oliver Sawford Shrive

• Born on 27 November 1889
• Son of William Thomas Shrive and Mrs. Jane Shrive
• Enlisted into the Army on 16 September 1914
• Posted to the Territorial Force branch of the Royal Artillery.
• Posted to the 4th East Anglian Battery Royal Field Artillery - also known as the "Northamptonshire Battery" or the "Peterborough Battery"
• Numbered 4471
• Designated as a Gunner (as opposed to a Driver) the Artillery equivalent of a Private
• Part of a group of 15 men from the Battery to volunteer for service in India in December 1914 (see below)
• Transferred to the Wessex Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, 9 December 1914 and renumbered in their allocated series, number 1791.

• Posted to 2/2 Hants Battery, 2/1st Wessex Field Artillery Brigade, Royal Field Artillery at Fareham, 10 December 1914

• Embarked to India, 12 December 1914

• Arrived at Bombay with Wessex Battery, 4 January 1915
• 2/2nd Wessex Battery changed name and became 1098 Battery.
• 2/1st Wessex Artillery Brigade name changed to 225th Brigade in 1915.
• Awarded the British War Medal (at this point, because he was not in an active theatre of war he was not initially entitled to the Victory Medal)
• October 1915 - At Kirkee in India per Newspaper article
• Renumbered, to No. 850871, in early 1917 in the new range (850001 to 855000) allotted to two "paired" Artillery Brigades - 225th Brigade (in India) and 215th Brigade (in Mesopotamia)
• In April 1917 225th Artillery Brigade was broken up and 1098 Battery was posted to 227th Artillery Brigade (formerly known as 2/3rd Wessex Artillery Brigade)
• At some point, probably after early 1917, Gunner Oliver Shrive, left 227th Brigade and moved to an active theatre of war (this could be the Western Front, Mesopotamia (Iraq), Palestine, Salonika, Italy, etc.)
• Upon arrival in an active Theatre of War he became entitled to the Victory Medal as well as the British War Medal
• Served in Salonika according to family lore
• Wounded in whichever Theatre of War he went to, possibly in 1918
• Wounded in the hand on the Western Front according to family lore
• Transferred to "A" Battery of 5th Reserve Artillery Brigade in the UK
• Discharged due to wounds on 26 February 1919
• Claimed a Silver War Badge, No. 500007
• Married in 1923 to Annie E Broughton (Oundle Reg. District); born 13 August 1897
• Of 55 Benefield Road, Oundle in 1939 - with Annie E Shrive (b. 13-8-1897) and Monica Shrive (b. 1924 )
• Died on 4 July 1975 - of 55 Benefield Road, Oundle; death registered in Kettering district

 

There are a few records for him that I cannot access. There are 2 records on FindMyPast relating to medical admissions or the like (possibly extracts from the MH/105 records that are sample records of medical facilities or from scraps of records that occasional appear) - these may show woundings or other injures and may give a unit detail. Also there is a Pension application card on the Fold3 section of Ancestry - this may say why he was discharged and what unit he was with.

 

This page of the Long, Long Trail shows the movements of the various Wessex batteries and artillery brigades.

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/batteries-and-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery/ccxxv-ccxxvii-and-ccxxviii-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery-45th-divisional-artillery/

 

These are the volunteers transferred from the Peterborough Battery to the 2/2nd Wessex Battery in 1914:

1. Bombardier Percy (Charles) Elliott, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4458, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1790 & 850870 (85 Taverners Road, Peterborough)
2. Gunner Oliver Sawford Shrive, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4471, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1791 & 850871 (30 Westwood St, Peterborough)
3. Acting Corporal John W Glithero (Glithers per MIC), Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4486, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1792 & 850872 (30 Fitzwilliam St., Peterborough)
4. Driver Herbert Merrison, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4488, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1793 & 850873 (Of Downham Market)
5. Gunner Joseph Bernard, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4490, Wessex Brigade RFA, No. 1794 & 850874 (Of 7 Kings Dyke, Whittlesey)
6. Gunner Harry Goodliffe,, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4497, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1795 & 850875 (234 Walpole St., Peterborough)
7. Driver Frederick W Elliott, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4497, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1796 & 850876, Royal Engineers 505848 & WR/199014 (6 Globe Street, Albert Place)
8. Gunner Edmund Causon, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4520, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1806 & 850883 (27 Charles Street, Peterborough)
9. Gunner John Vernon Fosbrooke, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4502, Wessex Brigade, RFA, No. 1807 & 850884 (Lincoln Road, Peterborough)
10. Gunner Harold Hornsby, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4507, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1808 & 850885 (Of Castor)
11. Driver Charles Herbert Adams, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4527, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1809 & 850886, Royal Engineers 271402 & WR/309040 (Elms Farm, Folksworth, Peterborough)
12. Driver Lewis Charles Faulkner, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4540, Wessex Battery, RFA, No. 1810 & 850887 (35 Cobden St., Peterborough)
13. Gunner Ernest William Gibbons, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4548, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1811 & 850888 (Manor Farm Cottage, Castor)
14. Gunner Frank Holloway, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4549, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1812 & 850889 (30 Fitzwilliam St., Peterborough)
15. Sergeant Edward Charles Jones, Northamptonshire Battery RFA No. 4435, Wessex Brigade RFA No. 1476 & 865786 - Different Wessex Brigade No. (76 Gilpin St., Peterborough)

 

Please let us know what you would like to find out, if anything.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Steve.

Edited 13 December , 2018 by Stebie9173

[Jane Dixon]

Hi Steve,

Wow, thank you so much, the only thing I could add to this is that he had another daughter in 1928, Ivy, she is my Aunt, and she asked me to see what I could find out about what happened to him in the War, as he never spoke about it to anyone. I will give her this information, and get back to you if she has any questions. She will be very happy with all the accompanying information on her uncles aswell. As am I!

Thanks again,

Jane