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Remembered Today:

CWGC mix-up or me?


Skipman

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The 1st three photographs in an album have on back of photos (#1999) ( #1821, 5 platoon) (#1807 , 5 platoon.)

These men are Cameronians.Scottish rifles. (unless one is a R/Scot?)

I believe i have identified (1) #1999 (ancestry) as Thomas Mason,back of photo says fell at Dardanelles 29/6/15

CWGC says KIA 28/6/15,name on Helles Memorial.

(2) # 1821. as Richard Wallace (ancestry) MIC says died Balkans.CWGC says KIA 28/6/15 . on Helles memorial

(3) #1807 as William J Douglas (ancestry) .MIC says KIA Balkans. CWGC says killed 23/11/17 .Jerusalem War Cemy.

CWGC says there is a William Stuart Douglas 2019 Royal Scots. died 28/6/15 on Helles memorial.

Is it possible these two are mixed up.

Am equally sure it is possible i am mixed up.

It's just something doesn't add up,and admit am reaching limit of skill at sorting it out.

Can anyone help?

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From SDGW:

Regiment, Corps etc.: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

Battalion etc.: 7th Battalion.

Last name: Douglas

First name(s): William James

Initials: W J

Birthplace:

Enlisted: Glasgow

Residence:

Rank: PRIVATE

Number: 265400

Date died: 23 November 1917

How died: Killed in action

Theatre of war: Egypt

Regiment, Corps etc.: Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment)

Battalion etc.: 4th Battalion.

Last name: Douglas

First name(s): William Stuart

Initials: W S

Birthplace: Edinburgh

Enlisted: Edinburgh

Residence:

Rank: PRIVATE

Number: 2019

Date died: 28 June 1915

How died: Killed in action

Theatre of war: Gallipoli

Hth

Grant

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Thanks Grant.

The man identified as William j Douglas 265400/(1807 # 5 platoon on back of photo) i believe is more likely to have died,28/6/15, along with the man 1821 #5 platoon both s/rifles and man 1999 who also died 28/6/15.

Is it just a coincidence that a man with same name ,different middle initial /R/Scots,is on Helles Memorial,on same day as 1&2.

I think the two are mixed up some way.

MIC has #265400,also as 1807 S/Rifles.

It may be just the middle initial that is wrong.

Help! Mike.

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Hi Mike,

The CWGC do have the correct William Douglas for 28th June 1915 at Gallipoli. A small report in The Scotsman of Wednesday, 28th July 1915, page 8 provides his details:

post-6340-1224059591.jpg

Stuart

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post-35119-1224060161.jpg Is this man aScottish Rifles or Royal Scots?

On the back of this photo is #1807 #5 platoon. Is he William J Douglas ,or William Stuart Douglas.

The 2nd photo in album is of #1821 # 5 platoon.The photos are side by side in album,both 5 platoon,i presume they are both S/rifles.

There is confusion somewhere,(my head probably) between MIC/CWGC &what is written on back of photo.

If this man a Royal Scot no problem,if he is S/Rifles,something is wrong.

Cheers Mike.

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Hi Mike,

He is a Cameronian. Black buttons = rifle battalion. Also, no dicing on glengarry. Maybe you weren't interested in my previous post, but it shows that William Stuart Douglas, 1/4th Royal Scots was killed on 28th June 1915. I'm not sure what the confusion is; you have photos of three Cameronians, 1999 Thomas Mason, 1821 Richard Wallace and 1807 William J Douglas. Mason and Wallace were killed on the above date, but Douglas survived until Nov 1917 in Palestine.

Stuart

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Sorry Stuart.Was extremely interested in your reply,and much obliged for your help.I admit my confusion is not being explained well,by me.

I am in a muddle.I think my confusion is being caused by the fact that there is a man with a very similar name(middle initial) different,who was killed on the same day,buried at same place, and next to,(in Private family Album) the other two men; ie Thomas Mason,and Richard Wallace.I think there must at least be the possibility that is a mistake somewhere.

William Stuart Douglas KIA 28/6/15

I admit am confused,but going by MIC/Ancestry and what's on back of photo,something isn't quite right.

Will always appreciate others efforts,sorry if it came across wrongly.

Thanks again Mike.

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Hi Mike,

I agree that you have just allowed yourself to become a little confused because there happened to be someone with the same name killed on the same date in the same battle, albeit in a different regiment. If, for a moment, you forget about WS Douglas, Royal Scots, there is nothing contradictory about the photos, MICs or CWGC information.

To recap, your basic info is from someone's personal album. It contains three men in similar uniforms - Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) - from this you have, understandably, drawn the conclusion that these men served in the same unit. I agree.

On the reverse of each photo is a regimental number which indicates that these men are: 1999 Thomas Mason, 1821 Richard Wallace and 1807 William J Douglas. Their respective MICs all give the same theatre and date of entry and state that Mason and Wallace 'died', while Douglas was 'K in A'. No dates or place of death are given. The CWGC confirm that all three men died in service; Mason and Wallace on 28th June 1915 at Gallipoli and Douglas on 23rd Nov 1917 in Palestine.

The fact that William Stuart Douglas, Royal Scots, was killed the same day as Mason and Wallace does not affect any of the above.

Anyhow, I have found other casualty list details to convince you:

The Scotsman published daily list of casualties. These lists are separated by category: killed, died of wounds, died, accidentally killed; wounded; missing; wounded & missing etc. In the list published Tuesday, 3rd August 1915, page 2 the 1/7th Cameronians had about approximately 25, 90 and 110 men listed as killed, wounded and missing respectively. The list is much too large to copy, but the names included are:

Wounded: Douglas, 1807, W. J.

Missing: 1999, Mason, T.; 1821, Wallace, R.

A list published 9th August 1915 includes a long list of missing 4th Royal Scots, including 'Douglas, 2019, W.' This clearly shows the two distinct individuals involved in the same theatre around the same time.

Furthermore, below is the notice of the death of 'your' WJ Douglas:

The Scotsman - Monday, 7th January 1918, page 3:

Killed

post-6340-1224070830.jpg

Together, the above shows that Douglas (WJ), Mason and Wallace all served with the 1/7th Cameronians. On 28th June 1915, Mason and Wallace were posted missing (later presumed died on that date), while #1807 Douglas was wounded. WJ Douglas recovered and continued to serve with his battalion until he too was killed on 23rd November 1917.

William Stuart Douglas KIA 28/6/15 is a complete red herring and has nothing to do with the three photos in the album. Same name, same place, same (coincidental) date of death as Mason and Wallace, but wrong regiment, wrong man.

I know from experience how easy it is to become confused, but I hope the above will satisfy you that you have the correct man. I also hope it clears away your confusion. (Look like very good photos).

All the best,

Stuart

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Stuart.

What can i say.Great work.In my defence i can only say i fell for the 'too many coincidences' thought.

i can only bow to your superior researching skills.Am truly impressed.

Mike.

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Would like to say in this album ,are many men 30-40,individual photos,and 10+ group.A lot which are S/Rifles,and various.

Will make a list of all identifiable ones,and post.Also if anyone is interested,am willing to email,or post on forum

Am always concerned with number of photos i am posting.

Once again ,thanks stuart, am still amazed at coincidence of 2 men same name etc etc......

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Mike,

Going by the example shown above, they appear to be very good quality photos. I would be interested in seeing the list you compile, although it is unlikely that I will be lucky enough that any of them will be from my part of Scotland (south west). Any KOSB men?

Cheers,

Stuart

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