Theodore Augustus Ashfield

[PPCLI]

Dear all,

I was trying to find something else when I stumbled across this article, published in The Scotsman, Friday, 4th September 1914, page 7:

GLASGOW SERGEANT'S FUNERAL

INTERESTING MILITARY RECORD

The funeral of the late Sergeant T. A. Ashfield took place yesterday at Sighthill Cemetery, Glasgow. Sergeant Ashfield had been called up with the National Reserves, and appointed for duty in the training of recruits. The severe strain proved too much for him, and complications arising from a wound received at Paardeberg proved fatal at the Military Hospital, Stobhill.

Sergeant Ashfield came of an interesting military family. His great-grandfather, William, was killed at Waterloo. His grandfather, William Edward, joined the 73rd Regiment, now the 2nd Black Watch, with which he served through the Crimean War and the Indian Mutiny; and was on the Birkenhead when that ship was wrecked. His father also served in the 73rd Regiment. The late Sergeant Ashfield joined the Seaforth Highlanders, and served through the Chitral, Omdurman, and South African campaigns. He leaves a widow and a young son. Owing to the activities in military centres due to the war, it was not found possible to arrange for a military funeral.

After a bit of searching, I found that his full name was Theodore Augustus Ashfield, born 1872/73, Colombia, Ceylon (source: 1901 census, 'Soldier Private, Fort George, Inverness')

And after spending a few quid on ScotlandsPeople:

• Married: Mabel Hewson, 2nd May 1898, Birmingham
• Children: Marjorie Mabel Hand, 16th February 1899, Fort George and Theodore Augustus, 1901, Fort George. On daughter's birth certificate states, 'Drummer, Seaforth Highlanders'

Death certificate:

• Theodore Augustus Ashfield, Drill Instructor (Ex Sergeant Seaforth Highlanders) (an Army Pensioner) Married to Mabel Hewson
• Died at Stobhill Hospital, Glasgow at 1pm on 31st August 1914
• Cause of death, 'Perforation of Duodenal Ulcer'

So, both the newspaper report and the death certificate indicate that he was serving in the army when taken ill. I can't find any CWGC record. Nor can I find any official army document - MIC, service record - giving his number etc. The only possibility that I have found is on the page, Relief of Chitral 1895 - 2nd Seaforth Highlanders, which gives a Drummer William Ashfield - oh well, as they say, 2 out of 3 ain't bad! Maybe on enlistment he was thinking about the potential ribbing of soldiering under the monicker Theodore Augustus?

Looking forward to whether pals think this is a case with grounds to proceed?

Stuart

[chrisharley9]

Stuart

go for it - you have everthing for a sound case there

Chris

[Neil Clark]

Stuart,

I think Chris didn't look closely at the facts in any detail. On the face of it, Stuart portrays a dead cert by stating "

So, both the newspaper report and the death certificate indicate that he was serving in the army when taken ill". I don't read it that way at all.

This chap was obviously a career soldier and very experienced NCO indeed who whose skills and experience was put to good use on the outbreak of war. I presume he wore the Chitral Ribbon together with the QSA and KSA medals? He also served at Obdurman in Egypt which if memory serves me correctly was the last time the British Cavalry led a charge on horseback.

Sounds a very interesting character, I bet he could tell a few stories to his grandkids...

My Great Grandfather (Pte William Charles Clark 5819/5813) served in the 2nd Buffs (East Kent Regiment) throughout the Boer War (1899-1902). He lied about his age and enlisted in South London. He sailed on the Gaika and landed at Capetown aged only 17 years! I have his medals and his Queen's South Africa Medal has 5 bars - Driefontein, Paardeburg, Relief of Kimberley, Traansval, Orange Free State. Apparently the story goes that whilst serving in the 2nd Buffs Mounted Infantry Company during the battle of Paarbeburg, the Seathforth's and Black Watch got into trouble and called upon the help of my gt grandfathers mounted unit who immediately rode to their assistance and repulsed a Boer attack from a nearby laager. My Grandfather was discharged in 1902 when the 2nd Buffs returned to Dover but on the outbreak of war in 1914 was mobilised from the Reserve to serve as a Sergeant (Instructor) at The Citidel in Dover with 9th (Reserve) Buffs (a draft finding/training battalion). During WW2 he served in the Buffs Home Guard as an elderly CSM and finally died in 1950 aged 67 years. My grandfather told me that his father was wounded in the groin at Paardburg and that he suffered from the effects for the rest of his life....

I wonder if his path ever crossed your man here? Its entirely possible isn't it. I have attached his photo.

I digress -

The first thing is that he was a very old soldier if he served during the Great War. Even for a home serving soldier he would have been quite old. Are you sure he served during the Great War? If not then he's NOT entitled to a CWGC commemoration. You state above that his DC shows he was a serving soldier when he died but then goes on to say he was a "Army Pensioner". Why mention the pension bit if he was still a serving soldier?

The newspaper article gives the information he was merely serving in the NATIONAL RESERVES! This is not helpful because at the start of the war the National Reserve didn't have full military/official status. Some counties called them Volunteer Training Corps (VTC's). These units were adopted and eventually given military status. Most became VOLUNTEER battalions of the County infantry Regiment. Terry Denham will probably be able to confirm that these men are NOT entitled to commemoration in any case. They were not part of the Territorial Force at anytime although they were I think administered by the T.F at some stages.

May be his Great War Service papers never existed which may explain your difficulty locating them.

The fact his DC lists cause of death as a Duodenal Ulcer WILL also be a problem.

Taking into account what you say, I do doubt he actually served in the Great War and therefore is probably NOT entitled to be commemorated. The DC isn't very clear - it states Drill Instructor but then mentions his previous service unit and the fact he's getting a Army pension. It's a bit confusing (for me too)...

More work needs to be done but I'm afraid it may be very hard to get to the truth if his service papers can't be found. Have you thought about searching the Boer War records at the National Archives? If you find them it proves he didn't serve during the Great War...

Something tells me this will turn out to be an ABORT. It's a pity but at least we have ALL learnt something here. Keep your eyes peeled for more non coms Stuart, they are out there waiting to be found...

Neil

[chrisharley9]

Neil

my fault I was very tired at the time - still am blasted night work

Chris

[PPCLI]

Hi Neil,

Thank you for your reply and for the very interesting story regarding your g-grandfather - yes, quite possibly that their paths crossed. Always interesting how people can read the same piece of information in different ways. Below are my arguments against your interpretation.

Quote: The first thing is that he was a very old soldier if he served during the Great War. Even for a home serving soldier he would have been quite old.

He was only 42 years old when he died, not old at all. Many, many men served overseas at that age and older, particularly with territorial battalions early in the war (1914-16). As for home service only, he would have been one of the younger ex-regular NCO drill instructors.

Quote: .... his DC shows he was a serving soldier when he died but then goes on to say he was a "Army Pensioner". Why mention the pension bit if he was still a serving soldier?

All Scottish certificates pertaining to military men give their current status as well as their normal profession. i.e., on his death he was a Drill Instructor, but his pre-war status was an Army Pensioner.

Quote: The newspaper article gives the information he was merely serving in the NATIONAL RESERVES!

No, I don't think it does. It states that he had been, 'called up with the National Reserves'. I think a more accurate phrase would have been 'called up from the National Reserve'. Indeed, if the sentence had read, 'Sergeant Ashfield had been called up from the National Reserves, and appointed for duty in the training of recruits', I think the situation would be very clear.

Quote: The fact his DC lists cause of death as a Duodenal Ulcer WILL also be a problem.

Yes, I would agree if he had, say, died after discharge. But what we have to remember is that a death certificate is an official document and his states his current occupation as 'Drill Instructor' i.e. in military service. Therefore, according to his death certificate he died of Perforation of Duodenal Ulcer while serving with the army.

Do you think that any of the above are good arguments?

What do other pals think? Opinions, one way or the other, welcomed.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Neil Clark]

Stuart,

I see what you are saying. Basically you rely upon the fact he was a serving soldier when he died. If this is so then I agree it's a pretty sure bet BUT, you shall be hard pressed to prove it if the service authority doesn't accept the wording on the DC. I must say whoever filled out that DC could have been a lot more specific.

You're right 42 years wasn't old, maths was never my strong point

With regard to the profession thing, again whoever filled out the DC could again have been a bit more specific - a Drill Instructor is an appointment within a disciplined service. Listing a former rank and regiment makes matters even worse as does the pension bit. Any number of organisations employed Drill Instructors (Police, Bands etc...). This could have been avoided if the DC listed ARMY drill Instructor!

Have you read my thread re causation/DC's/War Mems?

It would be easy if you managed to find his service docs. I wonder if it's worth searching the Boer War papers? Or perhaps he continued in his service after 1919 and they are to be found elsewhere?

It's not a straightforward case but I grant you it is very interesting. It is going to take more work thats for sure. Have you trawled the newspaper archives where he came from? They may throw up some helpful evidence to support your case.

I wish you luck Stuart. If I can help in any way, just P.M me.

I'm off to Madeira for a week or so (6th-14th Oct). I will pick any messages up when I get back to Banjul.

[PPCLI]

Hi Neil,

Yes, if I was to submit this case, I would relying upon the fact he was a serving soldier when he died. As the only official document so far found, I would hope his death certificate would make a positive contribution to the submission. I agree that it could have been a little clearer but that appears to be the way in which these certificates were filled in. Below is his entry along with another example, in this case a young man who I believe is a non-commemoration. In William Muir's case he died after discharge. I have shown both entries to illustrate the Scottish system of present status followed by pre-war occupation in brackets, along with marital status.

I had put a thread up about William Muir a few days ago but deleted it for a couple of reasons - none to do with his non-commemoration. I hope to put it back up in a few days time.

Yes, I have read your thread re causation/DC's/War Memorials. William Muir is on our village war memorial. I have his death certificate and his discharge sheet, which appear to match up very well.

I haven't anything else on Sgt Ashfield because I only came across the newspaper article yesterday. It looks like the family were based in Glasgow - tragically, the ScotlandPeoples index indicates that his wife died the following year, age 40. I wonder what became of the young son mentioned in the report?

Thank you for your interest, it is appreciated.

Stuart

[Neil Clark]

Stuart, Keep up the good work. They are out there just waiting for one of us to find em...

Best Wishes

Neil

[deemall]

Dear all,

I was trying to find something else when I stumbled across this article, published in The Scotsman, Friday, 4th September 1914, page 7:

GLASGOW SERGEANT'S FUNERAL

INTERESTING MILITARY RECORD

The funeral of the late Sergeant T. A. Ashfield took place yesterday at Sighthill Cemetery, Glasgow. Sergeant Ashfield had been called up with the National Reserves, and appointed for duty in the training of recruits. The severe strain proved too much for him, and complications arising from a wound received at Paardeberg proved fatal at the Military Hospital, Stobhill.

Sergeant Ashfield came of an interesting military family. His great-grandfather, William, was killed at Waterloo. His grandfather, William Edward, joined the 73rd Regiment, now the 2nd Black Watch, with which he served through the Crimean War and the Indian Mutiny; and was on the Birkenhead when that ship was wrecked. His father also served in the 73rd Regiment. The late Sergeant Ashfield joined the Seaforth Highlanders, and served through the Chitral, Omdurman, and South African campaigns. He leaves a widow and a young son. Owing to the activities in military centres due to the war, it was not found possible to arrange for a military funeral.

After a bit of searching, I found that his full name was Theodore Augustus Ashfield, born 1872/73, Colombia, Ceylon (source: 1901 census, 'Soldier Private, Fort George, Inverness')

And after spending a few quid on ScotlandsPeople:

• Married: Mabel Hewson, 2nd May 1898, Birmingham
• Children: Marjorie Mabel Hand, 16th February 1899, Fort George and Theodore Augustus, 1901, Fort George. On daughter's birth certificate states, 'Drummer, Seaforth Highlanders'

Death certificate:

• Theodore Augustus Ashfield, Drill Instructor (Ex Sergeant Seaforth Highlanders) (an Army Pensioner) Married to Mabel Hewson
• Died at Stobhill Hospital, Glasgow at 1pm on 31st August 1914
• Cause of death, 'Perforation of Duodenal Ulcer'

So, both the newspaper report and the death certificate indicate that he was serving in the army when taken ill. I can't find any CWGC record. Nor can I find any official army document - MIC, service record - giving his number etc. The only possibility that I have found is on the page, Relief of Chitral 1895 - 2nd Seaforth Highlanders, which gives a Drummer William Ashfield - oh well, as they say, 2 out of 3 ain't bad! Maybe on enlistment he was thinking about the potential ribbing of soldiering under the monicker Theodore Augustus?

Looking forward to whether pals think this is a case with grounds to proceed?

Stuart

[deemall]

Hello Stuart,

I was looking for another Theodore Ahfield, when I found yours. some of the background is very similar and I thought worth a mention. Here goes. My g grandfather William Robert Ashfield joined the 73rd in 1842 in London went to South Africa accompanied by his wife in 1845.He served out there for many years,. getting involveds with the indian mutiny on the way home. in 1861 his son is also in the 73rd and his name is William Edward Ashfield. another of his sons was a Theodore Ashfield, Co.seargt.Major 7th batteryR.G.A. (vols).this was 1907. Hope I haven't totally confused your research. Do you know any more of the family background to your man.

neen

[Guest kathleen mcgale]

Theodore Augustus Ashfield was my great uncle. I have the original newspaper cutting which I have photo copied. I sent it to David Seeny who was respected military researcher in about 1997. He proved that the obituary was very much an old soldiers story i.e. vastly over egged. His ancestors are all mixed up by name. his fathger was William Edward and his grand father was william robert. None of this family were at Waterloo or on the Birkenhead or at the Indian Mutiny. They were in the 73rd Foot later black watch regiment. I would like to correspond with you, Stuart and tell you more. Not sure how this works as I have only just joined this site by googling william ashfield.

Am I allowed to give you my email address.

Kathleen

[Guest kathleen mcgale]

Staurt

forgot to say that i have Theodore Augustus's army records from kew. he was in the seaforths and he di go to South Africa in the boer war and was wounded at Paardeburg.

Kathleen

[PPCLI]

Hello Kathleen,

Thank you for reply. You can get in touch me via the contact form on my web site, Sons of Galloway. Just add a little note in the 'Other Information' text box and your email address.

Best wishes,

Stuart

[PaulC78]

Pension card for Theodore Ashfield shows that the duodenal ulcer was aggravated by active service. But under the circumstances, would it need to be proven that it was aggravated by service in the "present war" and not from his earlier service? Or would it be accepted that he was a serving soldier at the time of his death?

 

[ss002d6252]

9 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

Pension card for Theodore Ashfield shows that the duodenal ulcer was aggravated by active service. But under the circumstances, would it need to be proven that it was aggravated by service in the "present war" and not from his earlier service? Or would it be accepted that he was a serving soldier at the time of his death?

 

If he died in service then the reason doesn't matter - that's certainly not a pre-war pension card.

 

The pension was paid under Article 11 of the 1917 Royal Warrant - this was only paid where

As IFCP summarise it

 

Quote

 

All personnel fall into one of the following three categories.

 

Category One:- Commonwealth men and women who were still in military service at the time of their death. These personnel automatically qualify for commemoration provided they died within the qualifying dates as follows:

First World War - 4th August 1914 to 31st August 1921

Second World War - 3rd September 1939 to 31st December 1947

The location of their death and the cause of death are immaterial to their qualification. They could have been killed in action, died of wounds, died of illness or by accident, died due to suicide or homicide or suffered judicial execution. CWGC treats all casualties equally and all must be commemorated under the terms of their Royal Charter.

 

Craig

[PaulC78]

After discussing this one with Terry Denham it looks like it's a no go. His service record shows that he was discharged as medically unfit in 1907 and there's insufficient evidence to show that he died in service: he could have been a civilian instructor.