The Sky on Fire

[BlackSeptember1918]

I think the area bombing tactics of WWII came more from the determination to not have a trench deadlock again , more than a follow up of what the Gotha's achieved . Twin engined bomber development in the 30's was such that they seemed to be immune from fighter attack because of their speed . The all metal low wing monoplane fighter changed that .

You could write a book on all the parts of this subject I guess, but long posts are boring ( or do i just have a short attention span ? ).

[Guest Pete Wood]

Like Andy said lets GET back to WW1, my reply was to that, as in my history lessons of the Uk, thats how the Cities and Towns mushroomed at the turn of the century, when people deserted the countryside for such places.

Your point about WW2, on your casulty figures for civilians 60,000, what was the population ?? around 40 million, i guess thats just over one and half percent, i think i would call that a small percentage,

Your maths skills are also about as good as your social skills. The percentage of 60,000 to 40,000,000 is actually about 0.15 %.

Sure it doesn't sound a lot, but the WW2 civilian deaths equates to three times the deaths on the 1st day of the Somme. That figure is also 50 times the casualties of the civilian deaths in WW1.

What that tiny figure means is that for every 700 people living in this country, about one innocent civilian was killed. That, in almost anyone's book, is a substantial percentage/figure.

There was also no mass exodus from the cities in WW1 because of bombing, Nigel, unless you know different.....

[Guest Pete Wood]

Appologise for my figures being wrong, thankyou for correcting me.You can twist them anyway you want, no doubt a terrible loss to any relative, but from anyone involved in the war, pretty useless as regards effective City bombing on civilians, and as regards worried polititions on the effect on the home front, i would say they had nothing to worry about wouldnt you???

Truth is from Andy's point, the German campaign, pretty useless in numbers and deaths. On damage Andy i can tell you quite efffective as Birmingham had to be rebuilt after the war, as it was so bad. And i think most other cities were in a similar state. But even so people didnt run off and hide in the countryside, as maybe the thinking may have been.

Bomber Harris seems to have picked up on a different way of executing a similar campaign, and his turned out to be extremely effective.

What an amazing set of statements.

I disagree with them all - but even when I shove the evidence under your nose, you deny the casualties are 'worrying.'

Nigel, go and do some reading on the subject. Read the books. Read the newspapers. Read Hansard.

Yes the public were fearful of being bombed. That's why the tube stations and shelters were full every night.

For every death, there were around three people injured. It takes two people to remove an injured person to a place of treatment. It takes at least two medically trained people to care for each injured person. The fires have to be fought, the streets cordoned off, the roads and buildings repaired/cleared afterwards.

All this is a massive drain on resources in terms of manpower and money.

This country was being bled as a result of German bombing tactics, using aeroplanes and flying bombs.

Morale was very low, as a result, in both WW1 and WW2. In both wars, the politicians were, from everything I have read, very nervous.

A whole propoganda department was set up to TRY to prevent people running away from the cities, where much of the industrial workforce was living/working. The 'business as usual' motto was fairly succesful in keeping much of the workforce staying put. However I have dozens of photos of children with name tags around their necks, being packed off not only to the countryside, but also to different continents (valuable shipping resources tied up). I don't have the numbers of evacuees to hand, but I recall the total was large.

So an aerial bombing campaign was, IMHO, very effective for a number of reasons. The tactics appear, to me, to have been worked out, by 1917, of how and when to bomb - and the use of formations and feints (false targetting) was also well established.

You only have to look at the magazines and newspapers of the 1930s, and to see how many air raid committees were being formed in British towns and cities to realise how seriously this country took the threat of an air war in terms of monetary damage and morale.

The Germans perfected their 1915-1918 tactics in the Spanish Civil War and, until the American Air Force joined the British effort, the Luftwaffe was (IMHO) winning the war of attrition over the WW2 British mainland.

So, NO, I don't think the German bombing campaign, in either war, was 'pretty useless.' In fact, I think that in WW2 Britain was very lucky, in many respects, that the civilian 'people' were able to hold out until the retaliatory joint-allied strikes could take place, and the that the Russian campaign (and other theatres) was able to divert much of the Luftwaffe away from our airspace.

[Guest Pete Wood]

I honestly dont mean to doubt anybody, but would much rather believe those who were there, than a book, no insult intended there.

Family history, and eye witness accounts, are important. But they tend to be localised memories.

I feel that you will build up a clearer picture of the overall effects of the German bombing campaign by studying other evidence (printed material being the most reliable) in all parts of the country, and thinking not of the figures of those who were actually killed, but of the number of people who could have been serving/working in the war effort and, instead, who were diverted into Home Defence duties.

It is the reason why the British army no longer issues high velocity rifles, which were designed to kill. The newest rifles are designed to wound, which diverts more of the enemy's resources.

In 1917, following the public riots after the Gotha raids, the Government was forced to divert valuable squadrons from the Western Front to the UK. This had little effect on preventing the bombers from attacking these shores. But it did 'lift' morale, and prevented the collapse of law and order. It also stopped the idea of any peace negotiations through public demand, which Germany was hoping would happen because of the bombing campaign in WW1.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Localised memories, totally agree Teapots, but let me show you what books do, Andy could have this impression of the British public panicing in the streets and running for the hills,

Not something you could do if the population was in blind panic, and hiding in the countryside.

I dont read books havent got the patience to read what some one else wants me to believe.

1 In WW1, there WAS panic. In one example, in London, there was an incident in 1917 which led to the death of some 22 civilians with 50 seriously injured when a crowd tried to get into a railway station en masse during an air raid.

2 An even bigger (panic induced) catastrophe occurred in WW2 - again in London, but at the entrance to a Tube Station. There wasn't even an air raid, that night.

3 Running for the hills?? Yes, in certain areas they were - and also caves, cellars, shelters etc etc.

4 If you could be bothered to read some books you would find that production WAS severely affected, in both wars, by the German air raids. So while Britain did make many new ships and aeroplanes, production was down.

5 Where did I find out the above? I read everything I could find on the subject; facts!!

6 Of course Nigel, you don't have to believe what an author says (or someone on the forum, come to that). Instead, carry out your own investigations - then back up anything you dispute with hard evidence, rather than heresay or guess work. The problem you have now, Nigel, with your above confession, is that no-one will bother trying to discuss ANYTHING with you - when it is obvious that you just want to tell us your 'opinion(s)' instead of discussing facts/information.

7 I did an engineering degree. My course books taught me, among other things, that the planet earth is round - not flat, as so many people have said.....

[Guest Pete Wood]

Here are some selected reports on the effects of air raids in WW1. None of these reports are from books, neither will you find them on the web. All the reports are about firms outside London

So, I give the benefit of part of my research....

Selected reports in the PRO with regard to air raids:

A letter from the director of a Sheffield Steel firm:

"In our department these raids have naturally a very bad effect on the men. On Monday the 3rd instant after the previous night's raid, out of a total of over 2,000 men, 633 did not turn out the first quarter, and 196 were off all day.

On Thursday the 6th instant after the previous night's Air Raid, in which case the lights were not turned on till nearly four o'clock, 821 men did not turn in on the first quarter and 254 were off all day.

Reports from shipyards:

At Jarrow shipyard on Monday morning there were scarcely any men in the shipyard first thing while 351 were absent all day which is about 3 times more than are usually absent on a Monday.

On Thursday, the 6th instant, there were very few men in first thing and 208 were absent all day which is like five times the number which would be absent on any ordinary Thursday.

At Hebburn shipyard on Monday there were not more than 10 or 12% of the outside workers at their work first thing and the number off the whole day amounted to fully one-fifth of the total.

It is also found that for some time after a raid it is difficult to get any of the men to work overtime.

In our repairing department also the men have on several occasions refused to work more than half a shift overtime.

Council Reports

From the Chairman of the Loftus Urban District Council with reference to the blast furnaces at Skinningrove:

"A very large number of houses are built within a few yards of the works and the public have after so many shocks flocked into the local mine for shelter by thousands- thus very materially interfering with important work, as they are in such a state of terror that a large number remain in the mine up to 5 a.m. and cannot follow their employment".

Report from the Chief Constable of Birmingham writing on the subject of warnings said "I have this morning had a further conference with the representatives of 19 firms in Birmingham being those with whom it has been arranged to receive the earliest warning of aircraft raids, and these persons were unanimous in condemning the preliminary warning being communicated by telephone to the factories.

They agree with me that it would be practically impossible to prevent this knowledge becoming known throughout the works and without panic and disorganisation.

Experience has shown that workmen would discontinue their work for that day at least and valuable time would be lost.

Report from Palmers

"There have been three such alarms recently on the first, second and. fifth instants. The result in each instance being seriously to restrict our output at the time and to delay the progress of work on the. following day.".

[Guest Pete Wood]

Production Down and the population of Britain my parents and the like cowering in caves

Just to show Nigel that these caves existed:

Athol Terrace Caves, Dover - used between 1810-1945

Behind Athol Terrace is a large 19th Century cave system that was extensively enlarged and adapted as air raid shelters with a capacity of approximately 725 people. Large numbers sheltered here from the German long range guns that caused so much damage to the town in WWII. Most of these caves and tunnels are in a reasonable condition and structurally sound although one particular area has suffered from spectacular roof falls and was sealed off - it can now be accessed but is EXTREMELY UNSTABLE and should be avoided. Another cave has suffered a roof fall but is now reasonably sound.

Graffiti from the 1800's onwards can be easily found, as well as carvings of angels and gargoyles, and WWII notices regarding occupancy of beds can still be seen stencilled on lined sections. At the rear of the cave system, the Guildford Tunnel links this area with Chapel Cave and Trevanion Caves.

These caves / tunnels are the property of English Heritage and access is NOT allowed.

[AndyHollinger]

Nigel ... There was chaos in London during and after the Gotha raids in WWI - that's established fact. German bombing in WWII came within a hair's width of destroying the aircraft manufacturing and the airfields until they changed to city bombing.

My question was about the change and what caused it.

Neither me or Teapots has insinuated that your relatives were terrified ... in general, there was little of it during the Blitz - although there was disruption and it did disorder life in London, etc. Your statistics should be for production in 1941 ... by 1942 the blitz being over, the production rose incredibly (as it did when the Germans stopped bombing the plants extensively.

My question remains as to why the switch when it happened.

Your rather crude attempts at characterization are uncommon on this board and I, for one, wish you'd rethink your terminology. My suggestion would be to step away from the conversation and read the posts again ... and see if you're not getting a bit carried away.

[BlackSeptember1918]

Andy

I still in my own mind think the switch happened due to impatience . Hitler wanting Britain as a sort of " do as your told allie " wanted to spare the city's at first . As it seemed that Fighter Command wasn't being weakened , and he wasn't going to be able to force the British to sue for peace quickely ..he then lost patience and ordered terror attacks ..there also is some truth in the fact that it was as a reprisal for the British small scale raids on Germany .

Bottom line for me is he believed Britain beaten , and wanted to get on with his real goal of exterminating Russia ...so the attacks on civillian area's was a sort of " ok ..you don't want to play the game ?..then take some of this then . ".

On the matter of some of the posts from others...I have never met anyone on this forum who found RT anything other than a good bloke . He deserves more respect than he is getting ..even if you think he is wrong .

Phil.

[RodB]

To quote my mother : "when they came the second night we were ready for them". The difference in WWII was the British public had been trained in what to expect, how to behave, where to go.. she had already been trained to use a gas mask for example. In WWI remember this was something unexpected and new, and to the average civilian could have looked like the end of the world. Remember also that the middle aged male civilians of WWII were all veterans of WWI and not easily frightened - they were up on the roofs as air-raid wardens or in the shelters keeping morale up. This would have applied to Germany too. Remeber too that charismatic leadership (Churchill and Hitler) went a long way to maintaining civilian morale.

So, if indeed the small-scale civilian panic of WWI caused Goering to change tactics in WWII, he overlooked the fact that civilians, given adequate training, leadership and resources, will be just as resiliant as their trained troops at the front.

One gripe Andy - It was the UK at war, not England. Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh cities got bombed too.

[enoch beard]

there was a rota system organized in the rolling mills in oldbury,but shifts on the roof could be swapped(men with famlies didn't like doing it) also my grandad had a large family who didn't like heights!

his brother(aged 15) took over his shifts on the roof when my gran got pregnant in 44

enoch

[Guest Pete Wood]

Nobody has yet given me an answer as to when the Luftwaffe ceased to bomb mainland Britain, they were still active and agressive as in early 1945 they mounted an 800+ bomber raid even after the mauling from allied attacks from air and ground forces.

Last bomb to fall (on London) was, I believe, 27th March 1945.

Nigel, you are going to an awful lot of trouble to find out.... - what exactly?

If you read my posts, carefully, I say:

1 Production in both wars was down, because of the air raids.

2 The Gotha/Giant/Zeppelin raids of WW1 terrified the populace.

3 People sought refuge from the bombs, in both wars, in tube stations, railway stations, caves, tunnels, shelters etc.

4 A panic induced crush at Bethnal Green tube station (in 1943) caused the deaths of more than 170 people.

5 Many people were evacuated from towns and cities in WW2.

6 The army is now using a high velocity rifle, designed to wound (the SA80 replaced the even higher velocity 7.62mm SLR), because it ensures the enemy diverts more of its resources.

Without using insults, tell me which of the above points you have a problem with.....??

[Guest Pete Wood]

Infact Peter the only thing that you have said which i did question and only in part was this----"It is the reason why the British army no longer issues high velocity rifles, which were designed to kill. The newest rifles are designed to wound, which diverts more of the enemy's resources."----And then only a little technical part on velocity.

If you read things carefully, Nigel, you would not be getting so worked up about things.

I did NOT say the army doesn't issue high velocity rifles.

I said, "It is the reason why the British army no longer issues high velocity rifles, which were designed to kill. The newest rifles are designed to wound, which diverts more of the enemy's resources."

In other words, the SA80 is a high velocity rifle that was designed not to kill.

I only have a problem with people who accuse others of doing something they haven't said/done. So if the cap fits......

[Dragon]

It is the reason why the British army no longer issues high velocity rifles, which were designed to kill. The newest rifles are designed to wound

Sorry, confused. And I have read it, and re-read it, carefully and analytically.

If this, as it stands, doesn't mean that "the army doesn't issue high velocity rifles", what does it mean?

Perhaps you mean,

... the reason why the British army no longer issues [the type of] high velocity rifles [no comma] which were designed to kill[;] [and now issues] the newest rifles [which] are designed to wound...

Nigel's misinterpretation is perfectly understandable. At the very least, the original statement is ambiguous and obfuscating.

Gwyn

[Guest Pete Wood]

Dont worry Gwyn, i know exactly what he means. No army in the world would actually issue a main service rifle that can only wound, and i am sure the manufacturers would love to know what Peter is on about being as he has just killed their entire export orders ( not that they needed any help ). But Peter YOUare confusing people so you had better explain.

Ok. Please excuse the odd typo and grammer mistake:

The 7.62mm SLR was in general use, with the British Army, into the late 1980s. It had a higher velocity than the old .303 rifle.

The SLR was a great piece of kit that blew great big holes in people - and usually killed them outright, or in a very short space of time.

The rifle that replaced the SLR was the SA80. It had less velocity than the SLR (but could never be labelled as low velocity. Is there such a rifle?) and used a smaller round. It was designed to make a smaller hole in people, with less 'punch', so that the enemy didn't necessarily die.

Why? Because then it takes two more of the enemy to cart the wounded soldier off the battlefield. So instead of killing one soldier, you have used up more of the enemy's resources (including medical aid).

I used this analogy, with a comma in the wrong place it seems, to describe how the German bombers (in WW1) succeeded in diverting RFC squadrons away from the Western Front to the role of Home Defence. Some 17,000 trained servicemen in total.......

[Guest Pete Wood]

All about knetic energy, back to the engineering days, if a lorry and a mini car travel at 30mph into a brick wall the mini crumples and does a bit of damage and the lorry wrecks the place, but even so the mini will still kill ya.

Quite.

But do you dispute that the SA80 was designed to wound....??

[Alison Arnold]

Can we get back on topic please guys.

Ali

[KONDOA]

Hitler changed his tactics once he realised that his initial plan to destroy the RAF had failed. Without German air supremacy the planned invasion would be jeopardised. German aircraft were limited on fuel and could only achieve limited results for their given payload at great expense in machines and crews.Attacking civilian populations was a cheap and effective alternative given the rudimentary navigation which invariably resulted in civilian bombing in any case even if bombing strategic targets.

Roop

[KONDOA]

If you bomb the civilian population it is as effective or more so than bombing strategic targets as it affects more people, services etc and has greater effect on morale.

Production facilities are readily relocated or rebuilt as was the case similarly production can be dispersed, as was the case.

If you can bomb the civilian population and in this case in the capital city where the government also resides it is a very effective weapon in all manner of ways.

True many other cities were bombed severely but primarlily London recieved the biggest impact of terror bombing as opposed to strategic bombing.

Yourself and RT are arguing the same side of a coin. Neither being wrong but neither seeing each others perspectives with respect to the differing strategies in place at the time of these events.

Roop

[KONDOA]

Some of the best books are those written or contributed to by living witnesses eg First day of the Somme by Martin Middlebrook. This is why organisation like BBC, IWM, SAMHM etc etc make an effort to record such storiesfor posterity.

In context though living histories need to be placed and that is the role of the author/researcher etc. I am sure all members on this forum could relate family stories regarding WW2 bombing, however it is very localised history and whilst very valuable needs to fit into a bigger picture. Books tend to examine the bigger picture.

Roop

[John_Hartley]

Content deleted - JH

Edited 30 December , 2004 by John_Hartley

[KONDOA]

A very good point there Nigel, unfortunately what are very interesting stories often have little appeal in the market place. If you have seen Tom Morgans presentation of Martin Middlebrooks comments regarding his book (FDS) you will realise how difficult it is to actually make a viable book unless it is a local history printed locally. Many of the war books so far produced have very small audiences.

If you consider that this forum has to date attracted approx 5000 members of which only a small proportion consistently make postings (yourself included there ) you can see it is a difficult market.Especially given that access to this forum is effectively free.

The same effect is seen with TV, Newspapers and all media, with a few exceptions. It panders to the popular and in my view lowest common interest group (alternate views will not be responded to) Similarly in the context of historical writing the subject matter has to be relevant to a bigger picture as I indicated before.

Post WW1 there were many "soldiers stories " printed ,as at that time it was still a big issue and there was a market. I know people similar to what you have described who have diaries in book form; unfortunately that market passed and is no longer relevant with regard to the big picture history required to understand events. Interested people find the detail they need, hence the renewed popularity of the NA and other archive establishments.

Ultimately such records are better in an archive where they can be accessed by those who can use the infoormation to better effect. Unfortunately it is often the latter that make a viable history rather than a collection of original source authors.

Roop

[KONDOA]

All have their place in communicating the same message. I too love the internet for its immediacy, however for what is considered reliability one needs to use references that are still in book form. Until the information on the internet can be considered safe from a factual perspective one must use all sources.Writen work normally has peer appraisal/critical review which we trust produces a reliable text, no such system is currently being applied to the internet. If that were to happen there is great scope for the internet to become a better tool than it currently is.

Roop

[Terry Denham]

All posts subsequent to the one above have been deleted.

This thread started as a serious WW1 discussion but then degenerated into a spat between members. This Forum is no place for such activities.

Further posts are welcome in this thread provided they return to the original WW1 subject matter. Any others will be deleted.

Play the game, guys.