Who are these guys?

[centurion]

I attach a photo of what at first sight might be identified as a German Trench Mortar squad (the trench mortar being a sort of clue). However on closer inspection they are armed more like some sort of trench raiders. Two men have early types of grenade and two have clubs (one appears to be made from an axe handle. Two have short flare pistols (very like a Very) and two have some big long barreled flare pistols (almost big enough to be some sort of grenade launcher. Just what are they?

[auchonvillerssomme]

Look like flare guns and Petard grenades and a pioneers axe

Mick

[Max Poilu]

Who are they? Not sure exactly but I give you this lot in reply:

(Imagine it's just one of those odd little posed photos showing off the wares of war - a hugely interesting one none the less. Would not like to meet them on a dark night).

[NigelS]

It looks as if the prominent rectangular item - a map/ document case ? - ought to have some significance by the way it's been carefully positioned & propped up with a sandbag or similar. Could it have been a sign or caption with some details which have subsequently been masked out either when the photo was printed or more recently?

NigelS

[geraint]

In the original German photo - what is the third from right (bearded big bloke) holding in both his hands? Is that an opened flare gun?

The document case is a case and not a sign. It has a closure eye (hook and eye) visible on top, and the edges have morticed dovetailed joints indicating a case. A flare gun container/case?

[centurion]

Yes an open flare pistol like the one the man on the extreme right of the photo is holding. I had wondered if they were part of an early type of storm unit (with the mortar used for support) but the bearded one looks a might too chubby for this.

[Stebie9173]

Max, I'm afraid that the German unit win the "Wouldn't like to meet them in a dark communication trench..." competition by a country mile.

Steve.

[Jim Strawbridge]

At first I thought that the second photograph was of the 1914 British Paint-balling team - when the sport was in it's infancy. But two questions arise. I assume by the standard of dress that these individuals are not officers. There are so many pistols in the photograph that suggests that the weapons are captured from the enemy. So my two questions are :-

1) were pistols the sole domain of officers or would those in the ranks have been issued them for trench raids and the like?

2) what are the rope lasoos around the necks of almost all of them used for?

[daggers]

My first impression of the British photo was that they were officer-types, perhaps kitted out for or after a raid. The 'lassos' seems to be lanyards attached to the pistols.

D

[centurion]

My first impression of the British photo was that they were officer-types, perhaps kitted out for or after a raid. The 'lassos' seems to be lanyards attached to the pistols.

D

Some body should have told the guy standing on the right that one should not wear long johns under the shorts!

[west coast]

rope lasso, looks like pistol lanyards. this looks like the aftermath of a raid, at least five of them are bandaged in some manner.

mike.

[Stebie9173]

Tell a man with a pistol and a hand grenade in his hands that he look silly? Go ahead....

Steve.

[geraint]

.1) were pistols the sole domain of officers or would those in the ranks have been issued them for trench raids and the like?

Machine gun units were issued with revolvers rather than rifles.

I'm not a weapons expert, but the British photo appear to show British issue revolvers

[Max Poilu]

Sorry to confuse the issue with my British pic! The caption I wrote:

Imagine it's just one of those odd little posed photos showing off the wares of war - a hugely interesting one none the less. Would not like to meet them on a dark night).

...was referring to the Germans.

The Brits are posed as part of a trench raiding team - note the Stokes for chcuking down a dugout...

It was posted in this topic originally:

British Trench Raids, Tools, Equipment, Dress, and Tactics

[Simon Jones]

The Germans are definitely Pioneers and from the beards and their age I would say Reservists but I don't think they are a raiding party.

The bandages on the British guys' knees would be for crawling.

S

[bob lembke]

Re: the German photo:

Very early in the war (1914, first half of 1915), from unit-made crude grenades, no Stahlhelm, etc. Certainly not an active line unit, almost all of whose men early in the war would be 20-22 years old. Reserve, possibly Landwehr.

Almost certainly not Pioniere. No one seems to wear the black shoulder straps of the Pioniere (aka the Black Service); early in the war most Pioniere would have the right shoulder straps, later in the war only perhaps one in three, typically, in most photos. Also, Pioniere (not all) had manufactured grenades before the infantry did.

Not a choice group. Probably self-selected and posing as a raiding party. Or a raiding party of a really third-rate unit. Why so many light pistols? Perhaps pretending that they are actual pistols. Except early in the war, Germans had lots of P 08s for EM in raiding parties. Early in war a raiding party would have carried some rifles. I am not an expert in kit, but the cartridge case probably is an older model carried by Pioniere and reservists.

Bob

[TonyE]

At first I thought that the second photograph was of the 1914 British Paint-balling team - when the sport was in it's infancy. But two questions arise. I assume by the standard of dress that these individuals are not officers. There are so many pistols in the photograph that suggests that the weapons are captured from the enemy. So my two questions are :-

1) were pistols the sole domain of officers or would those in the ranks have been issued them for trench raids and the like?

2) what are the rope lasoos around the necks of almost all of them used for?

This is a wonderful photo of a Royal Fusiliers trench raiding party. Apart from the Stokes "grenade" the armament is interesting as they all carry Spanish made .455" "Old Pattern" pistols No.1 or 2 Mark I. These were purchased by Britain because there were insufficient revolvers from Webley, Colt and S & W available in 1915. The number purchased is uncertain but was probably about 50,000. Certainly one contract was for 30,000. Quality was very variable and in fact the contracts were eventually cancelled. The one exception is the man in the centre of the back row who has a Colt M1903 .32 auto in his left hand. This would suggest he is probably an officer with a private purchase arm.

The "lassoos" are simply lanyards attached to the pistols so that they do not lose them in any hand to hand fighting or similar and as already stated the bandages are knee protection. I agree that this looks like the celebration of a successful raid.

With regard to who had pistols issued to them there are plenty of categories; cavalry, machine gunners, signallers, tank crews etc. Don't forget it was only O.R.s who were issued with pistols as officers had to purchase their own.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Thanks guys for hijacking the thread, could someone possibly get back to the original group?

[Max Poilu]

Sorry Centurion.

Hopefully amongst the British pic discussion there is lots of useful info on the Germans.

[Max Poilu]

Just to be a bit more precise about the grenades - they are model 1915 artisans emergency pattern with a standard 206 gm explosive charge. As with the French Racquette/Petard de la Troisieme Armee and British Hairbrush/No.12 all were were made in a makeshift pattern normally with Bickford cord fuses as here as well as a 'production' model with percussion igniters - the German one being the scarce model with the hinged tin lid and waxed box of demolition explosive inside*. Eventually of course this would be developed into the regulation stick grenade or Stielhandgranate.

*A near mint example of one of these was on sale at Military Odyssey for £1000 from a well known Islington dealer. I considered it genuine but the price was

[Cnock]

Hello,

The German group is no raiding party.

Axes are common pattern, blade not visible.

The German infantry used several types of short and long barrelled flare guns

The mortar is of the type Minenwerfer Lanz.

The ammo pouch on the right was indeed worn by Pioniere, signal troops, etc.

Cnock

[centurion]

Hello,

The German group is no raiding party.

Axes are common pattern, blade not visible.

The German infantry used several types of short and long barrelled flare guns

The mortar is of the type Minenwerfer Lanz.

The ammo pouch on the right was indeed worn by Pioniere, signal troops, etc.

I don't think anyone is arguing about the identification of individual weapons but rather I wonder why a squad with a mortar would be armed with grenades, four flare guns and two axes (or possibly clubs made from axe handles). If they are not a raiding party what are they?

[Cnock]

Hello,

keep it simple, just the party holding that part of the trench, or the ones who built the mortar position.

certainly no raiding party.

grenades for when they are attacked,

axes for works at their position

flare guns for signalling

Cnock

[centurion]

Sorry but given the way they are posing with them I find that highly unconvincing. For a start you don't build a mortar position with axes you use shovels of which non are in evidence. And the number of flare pistols seems excessive.

[Max Poilu]

I don't think anyone is arguing about the identification of individual weapons but rather I wonder why a squad with a mortar would be armed with grenades, four flare guns and two axes (or possibly clubs made from axe handles). If they are not a raiding party what are they?

As eveyone says simply a group of 'soldiers' showing off the instruments of war. Nothing more, nothing less.