Presentation tank

[Ghost]

Well tanks3 that last picture of 148 looks to me as if the tank is female. As "we" both say "looks to me", then there is no positive ID. So it could still be the same tank as shown on the Richmond and Twickenham site.

Alan

[Mark Hansen]

The last picture is definitely of a male. The main feature is the sponson door. Only a male sponson has a full length door.

[centurion]

Not to mention the HSN - the 100 series was for male tanks - 200 for female. [if there was a Mk IV composite what number series would it be? - a hypothetical question at the moment]

[Sidearm]

And my research into serial numbers shows that all 40xx tanks were Male (at least originally). The photo is definitely, absolutely, of a Male, no question about it.

Gwyn

[KevinBattle]

I have had a response from the Richmond & Twickenham Times which concurs that it does not appear to be of the person it was initially attributed to!!

That of course throws any credence as to it being the Chiswick tank into doubt too (but I think that ws the concensus on here anyway).

I have the email address of the originator of the article and have asked if there is any other information available that may help identify the female tank in the photo. In the meantime, does anyone have a positive ID for it?

[Sidearm]

Too little to go on I'm afraid. I did wonder about Tynemouth (a long way from Chiswick!) as there are similarities in the plinth, but it's not much more than a guess I'm afraid.

Gwyn

[hudsonswhistle]

Doe's anyone from the Enfield area ever recall seeing a ww1 tank outside the old pumping station and now the museum in white webbs lane?

[centurion]

One general snippet that, I'm afraid, may just add to confusion. Some presentation tanks had an interim 'home' before ending up in their main location. This may give rise to reports of more than one tank. In some cases its very obvious what happened as the park or other site where they spent most of their time was not ready or opened at the time the presentation was made and they had to be parked somewhere. This was the case at Worcester and Pembroke Dock for example (in the case of Worcester it would seem that the tank was originally parked outside the Cathedral as it was in Durham) I think that this is also the explanation for more than one reported location in Hinkley.

[Sidearm]

I don't think it can be said that we know for sure that the Pembroke Dock presentation tank was at one location (unknown) and then moved to the Memorial Park. We know the Memorial Park was opened on 2 May 1925, which admittedly is late for a tank to be presented, but there must have been something there before the park was officially declared open by Lady Meyrick. Perhaps it was, er, a park with a tank in it.

Unless others know differently, of course...

Gwyn

[Sidearm]

I have now compared photos of the Tynemouth tank with the unknown Mark IV Female in the R&TT, and am of the opinion they are different tanks despite the similarity in plinths. The unknown tank does not appear to have unditching beam rails. The Tynemouth tank definitely did.

Gwyn

[centurion]

I don't think it can be said that we know for sure that the Pembroke Dock presentation tank was at one location (unknown) and then moved to the Memorial Park. We know the Memorial Park was opened on 2 May 1925, which admittedly is late for a tank to be presented, but there must have been something there before the park was officially declared open by Lady Meyrick. Perhaps it was, er, a park with a tank in it.

Unless others know differently, of course...

Gwyn

Ive seen references to it being moved to the park when it was completed

[KevinBattle]

As a newcomer and tank novice, I apologise if this question is not as easy to answer as to pose!!!

Is there no central record of where all the presentation tanks were donated? I hear of this "Silver List" is it available online? Do the MoD not have records as to what was the fate of all their WW1 era tanks, which were destroyed completely by enemy action, repaired, scrapped etc?

That might narrow the search down to only those known survivors?

Hopefully it could then be a task of matching locations to the tanks (or vice versa) and gradually eliminating the gaps.

I still don't know how Chiswick ended up with a tank, yes, a goodly amount was collected in the Tank Bank collection, but was it simply due to eligible towns refusing a presentation tank and Chiswick being on a "reserve" list? I'm sure it must have happened, but i would have thought that having the local populace contribute what appear to be quite staggering amounts, why would they then not be proud to get a tank in recognition of their efforts to win the war?

Does anyone have a list of tank production and the eventual fate of each tank?

It seems possible to identify WW1 aircraft production numbers by serial and even the individual maker of some fairly insignificant bits of Army kit, is it not possible for these rather more substantial items?

I'm not trying to stir up a hornets nest by implying criticism of any of you experts, just asking if it is possible.

[Sidearm]

KevinW4, it is a fair question so no offence is taken by you posing it. Actually there is no list of what happened to each tank from this period. Trying to work out what did is something that I've been trying to do, but the records are incredibly fragmentary. Each tank had a logbook, and this would have recorded minute details on a day-to-day basis. But I've only found one surviving example. There were also "Tank Daily Log" sheets (officially known as Form TK22) which recorded details such as Manufacturer's number, Battalion, Battalion (Crew) number, hours the engine was run, consumption of oil, petrol and grease, duties undertaken (fighting, training etc), parts replaced and the reason for replacement, ground passed over, commander's name, date, the cause and duration of involuntary stops, even the weather. The problem is that only a very small proportion have survived. Otherwise it's a matter of trying to amass alot of very small details and linking it all together. This is what my databases (several of them) do, but there are many gaps and some inconsistencies. For example, the Mark IV database includes at present 761 tanks of the 1220 produced.

On the presentation tanks specifically, the Silver list you refer to is actually a list of the 265 towns in England and Wales that contributed the most through War Bond sales per head of population. It appeared in the Silver Bullet, the journal of the War Savings Association. I don't know if it's on the Internet anywhere. Another Pal on this Forum kindly sent me a copy. As you say, it is not a list of the towns that received tanks, because some declined them whilst others were added. Also some received tanks for reasons other than War Bond sales. West Farningham is an example. There is no equivalent list for Scotland, although it is known that tanks were presented there. Glasgow had three presentation tanks and Elgin also had one. You ask why towns wouldn't want tanks as memorials. Simply many saw them as ugly reminders of a vile war. Who can blame them?

One of the problems I face in constructing the list is that some Battalions use the Battalion or Crew number in listing the tanks in battle reports and other documentation. This is better than nothing, but these numbers were not permanent - a tank could have its Crew number changed from one battle to the next, and it would certainly change when (as often happened) tanks moved between Battalions. Manufacturer's numbers, which are permanent, are thus vital to me. Every day when I find a new photo of a tank showing its manufaturer's number (or some other record) is a day when a little bit more is added to my knowledge. Another problem is that of transposed digits in original documents, although some such cases do stick out a mile when added to the database because they don't tally with other information.

Records from the Second World War are more complete, although there are still many, many gaps. There are also many more vehicles! As a result the numbers are longer and the problem with transposed digits becomes worse. There is even reputed to be one tank with different numbers painted on each side!

Hope that answers the question.

Gwyn

[izzy]

Out of curiosity were any ww2 tanks presented to any locations in the u.k ?

[tanks3]

Good morning all,

I have just come across on the internet the following pictures of presentation tanks. The first is said to be in a Park Blackburn. The facinating thing here is it is a male and is said to have HSN 152. However not sure if it has HSN 152 or is I 52 because of the gap between the 1 and 5. Frustratingly the gent in the photo is again blocking the view of where the manufacturers number would be. Any thoughts Sidearm or Centurion?

The second photo is said to be that of the presentation tank in Evesham. This is a female HSN 250.

Any further info about these 2 would be gratefully received.

Tanks3

[I W Rifleman]

I know I've come in late to this one ... but can anyone shed light on the Ryde Isle of Wight Tank? I remember my Father telling me that there was a WW1 Tank on the sea front at Ryde, but know no more.

Chris.

[tanks3]

Chris,

Yes there was one there. I have a picture of it at home - post a copy later. It was sited next to the boating lake

Tanks3

[centurion]

The Blackburn tank was in Queens Park, scrapped 1937

The Ryde Tank was by the Canoe Lake on the Eastern Esplanade

I've got the Blackburn listed as 152 Newcastle being 151

[tanks3]

Centurion,

Thanks for the reply. Any comments on 250 Evesham?

Tanks3

[tanks3]

Chris,

Here is the IoW tank

Tanks3

[centurion]

Note the very non standard recognition stripes. Another view.

[I W Rifleman]

Tanks3/Centurion,

Thanks (or should that be "Tanks"?) ... I know where that is next to the Canoe Lake ... Any others on the Island that you gentlemen know of?

Regards,

Chris.

[Sidearm]

On the Blackburn tank, I think it is 152 and not I 52, although the spacing does look a bit odd. I can't say what the manufacturer's number was I'm afraid. I also have it as scrapped in 1937. First photo I've seen of this one - thanks.

I agree that tank 250 is Evesham. I have it as residing in Abbey Park. I believe its manufacturer's number was 4518.

The Ryde IoW tank is interesting, because whilst according to the presentation speeches all presentation tanks were in action at Cambrai, this one really was. It is also interesting because this tank was built as a Male, but at some point was fitted with female sponsons. At Cambrai (when it was a Male) the tank was D46 "Dragon III" commanded by 2/Lt J.T. Clark.

There was also supposed to be a tank at Newport IoW. I have no details, nor can I confirm it was presented to the town. A willing someone with access to IoW newspaper records would be very helpful in clearing this up. I have searched those on-line sources open to me with no luck.

Gwyn

[Sidearm]

More on the Newport IoW tank. I have found a report that it was landed from a tug at Cowes on the afternoon of 27 August 1919. Just two days later two members of its crew were charged at Cowes Police Court of stealing the tank's dynamo and trying to sell it to a local garage. The men were remanded, but I don't know how this story ends.

Gwyn

[centurion]

More on the Newport IoW tank. I have found a report that it was landed from a tug at Cowes on the afternoon of 27 August 1919. Just two days later two members of its crew were charged at Cowes Police Court of stealing the tank's dynamo and trying to sell it to a local garage. The men were remanded, but I don't know how this story ends.

Gwyn

The Newport IOW tank was sited at the Victoria Recreation Ground.