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Remembered Today:

Presentation tank


stripeyman

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The end of a presentation tank sometime in the 1930's.

The photograph appears in 'Golden Years of Wigan' 1998. Part of the caption to this is

"Here a field gun has been sold to the company for scrap. It has been collected from Mesnes Park

as other members of the firm start to take down a shed for further slavage use"

It does not look like a 'shed' to me..............

Bob Grundy

post-18171-1222296744.jpg

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That's very interesting news for me: I always thought of the German Army of occupation in WW2 as the only "entity" that scrapped the tank remnants of WW1 in Belgium/France. So the British also scrapped the display and museum pieces but even earlier. That sounds logical w/r to excess weaponry, but is a bit strange for display/museum pieces?

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The perceived wisdom is that the presentation/memnorial tanks were scrapped in WW2 as part of a scrap metal drive. However a significant number (perhaps as much as half) were scrapped before then. Usually because councils were not prepared to pay for the upkeep and they do seem to have rusted very quickly. This was aided and abetted by the pacifist movement in the thirties that complained that they glorified war. In fact in WW2 the scrap drive was often just an excuse for councils to scrap the tanks as the metal recovered was of such low qualitiy to be unuseable (Many of the tanks cut up in the NE were merely dumped at sea).

I enclose the Wigan tank 'before and after'

post-9885-1222334345.jpeg

post-9885-1222334363.jpeg

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Not that unusual.

On the way back form the Pacific in WW2 there are many stories of RSMs having the men clean and service aircraft on the carriers only to then push them over the side. Imagine their worth now!

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There is a lot of speculation as to why the presentation tanks were cut up for scrap. When speaking to WW1 veterans they told me the main reason was because people were sick of seeing them! Everyone lost someone during WW1, so imagine yourself going to work every morning and seeing one of these tanks and being reminded of the loved ones that had been lost.

Sorry forum tankees, as much as you would like to think everyone, everywhere and at any time loved WW1 presentation tanks..........sorry, not the case!

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There is a lot of speculation as to why the presentation tanks were cut up for scrap. When speaking to WW1 veterans they told me the main reason was because people were sick of seeing them! Everyone lost someone during WW1, so imagine yourself going to work every morning and seeing one of these tanks and being reminded of the loved ones that had been lost.

Sorry forum tankees, as much as you would like to think everyone, everywhere and at any time loved WW1 presentation tanks..........sorry, not the case!

The populous of many towns raised a fuss when the council tried to scrap the tank. Coventry and Hemel Hempstead were just two examples where the council had to back down the first time it was attempted. In the case of Hemel they had to cough up for a new paint job instead. WW2 was an ideal moment for such councils to finally have their way as they could claim it was all for the war effort.

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Sorry forum tankees, as much as you would like to think everyone, everywhere and at any time loved WW1 presentation tanks..........sorry, not the case!

As someone who qualifies, I suppose, as a "forum tankee" I'll respond. I've never believed that everyone does, or should, love tanks. My own town currently has a tank on display. I thought it a daft idea when the town council asked for it ten or more years ago, and am not surprised, or sorry, that it's now to be disposed of. History repeats itself, and I could have told my foolish town council that at the time. (But if Ashford was to give up its Mark IV I really would be up in arms...!)

Gwyn

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Centurion - I think your photo of 228 is Leigh, Lancashire rather than Wigan.

Gwyn

The same photo appears in both Leigh and Wigan local sources but I think that is the Grand Hotel Wigan in the background.

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I think the worst decision taken in this area was the decision to salvage for scrap some of the remaining WW1 tanks at Bovington. Whilst enough survived to provide the fine display we have today they did scrap "mother" the prototype of the Mk I. If only it had been another example.

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I believe that we only have some of those left because some one had the presence of mind to conceal their existence (they were parked away from the others)

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Hello, my first post, so please forcive any unintended errors!

I'm replying to this thread in the hope that someone can provide information regarding the "Presentation" of a Mark IV male tank to the Borough of Chiswick after the Great War. There is an article on the ChiswickW4 forum home page which is as follows:-

Following a query from Winston Graham, editor of After the Battle magazine Tank Historian David Fletcher has hit a brick wall with his research and is asking ChiswickW4.com readers for help. He writes, “We received a query on a tank photograph (right) which one of our volunteers has identified at The Chiswick Tank from the photograph in Gillian Clegg’s ‘Chiswick Past’; you can see the number 148 on both machines.

Having focused a bit of interest on this machine two questions have cropped up. Firstly Chiswick does not appear on the list of Boroughs authorised to receive tanks that was published in the 16 April 1919 issue of the Silver Bullet – the National War Savings Committee paper. Secondly it is a male tank. This may need explaining. A male tank had a 57mm gun in a ‘sponson’ on each side. Female tanks had much smaller sponsons and only carried machine-guns, which could easily be removed. Most of the Mark IV tanks built were of the female type so they would be more common as War Bond tanks in any case but it is said that unarmed female tanks would be less tempting to anyone with a grudge against the authorities and to make absolutely sure such tanks were disabled, by removing certain parts, once they were in place.

As far as we can tell, although we have yet to find any proof, male tanks were presented mainly to places where tanks, or parts of tanks, were built; Coventry, Lincoln, Birmingham and Newcastle for example, but we also think that they may have been ‘awarded’ to boroughs that were the home of significant figures in the development of the tank. For example the village of Farningham in Kent received one whether it wanted it or not, because it was the home of the engineer W G Wilson, and Farningham does not appear on the NWSC list either, so we assume that it was a War Office donation instead.

Are there any records to show why Chiswick received a tank, and particularly a male one, if not through the offices of the NWSC? Among those involved in tank development at the time, who might have warranted a tank and who we feel could have lived in Chiswick the choice seems to lie between Sir Albert Stern, head of the Tank Supply Committee, Sir Eustace Tennyson D’Eyncourt the Director of Naval Construction or Sir Harry Ricardo, the engine designer.”

If you can shed any light on Chiswick’s tank, please email editor@chiswickw4.com

I'd be very interested in the reason why Chiswick was presented with a tank and what became of it. I "googled" Mark IV tank and was directed to a book "The First Tank Crews" where the Commander of D Company in the Flers 1916 attack, Captain Henry William Mortimer, was born in Chiswick in 1891. Otherwise the references in the quoted article may be more valid.

I'd appreciate any help that can throw some light on this.

Regards, Kevin

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Welcome

The silver list does not cover all tanks that were presented, beside Chiswick I've found two other instances of presentation tanks, in one of these the reason appears to be other than contributions to the war savings scheme (hence not on the silver list) and in fact a contribution by a plant in the area to the development and/or manufacture of the tanks. In Chiswick's case it might well be something to do with Mortimer. A male tank (as the number quoted indicates it was) usually means that the town or vicinity was connected with the history of the tanks themselves.

What is interesting is that 148 (see photo) has been attributed to the Lincolnshire area.

post-9885-1222641499.jpeg

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Centurion

Many thanks for your prompt and helpful response and I have forwarded it to the chiswickw4.com editor. Thanks also for uploading the photo, I'm not too good at knowing how to do that, and seeing it may encourage any others in responding.

I hope that the Captain Mortimer connection may be the link, but I'd also hope that there is much more fascinating information out there, rather than a single Google enquiry finding the reason. It shouldn't be that simple, there are 90 years of interesting history between then and now!!

I've asked the editor to follow up your suggestion that it might be also connected to manufacture or development of the tank, but it is possible that it was "acquired" due to the presence of "worthies" involved in tank development living in Chiswick, as a form of "compliment" to their efforts.

If anyone has further information, please post so we have a chance of finding out when, why and what happened to it (suspect like the ones mentioned in this thread that by late thiirties they were probably in poor condition and "donated" to the War effort!!

Regards, Kevin

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I should declare an interest here, as the Tank Museum's unnamed volunteer was, er, me.

It is true that the tank 148 has been linked to Lincoln, but there is no evidence I'm aware of for this identification. On the other hand there is evidence for it being Chiswick. This is the "Chiswick Past" reference David Fletcher refers to. It was I who found this and linked it to the photo Centurion has posted following an enquiry David made of me.

However, whether the photo is Chiswick or not is actually rather academic, because there is separate evidence that Chiswick had a tank. This is because we know that the Chiswick tank was cannibalised to make another one (that presented to Ealing) a runner. That tank was actually sold to a haulage firm in Slough - the Tank Museum have a photo of it with a civilian registration! Anyone know what happened to that?

I remain open minded about the idea that Male presentation tanks were allocated to towns with some special link with tanks. I can see the logic when one looks at Glasgow or Coventry. But what about Hythe, Barnolswick, Swansea or Pembroke Dock? How about Clitheroe or Exmouth? Or Lancaster? And I could cite many more mysterious examples. The idea that the distribution of Males was anything other than random is yet to be proved, or disproved, in my view.

Finally, perhaps Delta can clarify this, but I believe the commander's name may have been MORTIMORE rather than Mortimer?

Gwyn

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Sidearm!! Seems as if we have completed the circle!!

Thanks for your posting. You are correct in that I incorrectly identified the D Company Commander. It was in fact HAROLD William Mortimore and not as I previously posted. My apologies to all concerned.

I hope that the Chiswickw4.com editor (&/or Emma) is passing on all the information received and that I am one small cog in a larger endeavour.

Of the three quoted "worthies" I think that Sir Henry Ricardo and Sir Eustace Tennyson d'Eyncourt appear to have no links with Chiswick.

The tank in the photograph was mounted in that rather dramatic style at the junction of Chiswick High Road and Sutton Court Road, near some public conveniences (which I think is the building in the background). The toilet block is still there, but no longer in use.

Clearly you have additional sources of information, as evidenced by the detail about it being cannibalised to "make the Ealing one a runner". Now quite why Ealing would want a working tank is a bit of a worry, perhaps they were aware of plans for another runway at Heathrow and started to stockpile equipment!! As the chiswickw4.com website has links with adjoining boroughs, they may feel it worth posting on the Ealing site.

To prevent muddying the waters for you, I will withdraw and leave it to you experts to continue to unearth the necessary information. I'm just interested in Military history and something local such as this piqued my curiousity in an effort to help. You are here already, so I'm not actually helping add to the knowledge base! I have no idea whether there was any specific rationale to allocating male or female tanks, as more females were produced, they would therefore be available. The army may have decided to retain the heavier gunned (and perhaps more imposing) males after the Armistice.

I'd still be interested in what anyone else wishes to add regarding the Chiswick tank, and if I do discover anything that might help, I will let you know.

Thanks to all for your contributions, I'll now leave the field to Sidearm. Good luck!!

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The end of a presentation tank sometime in the 1930's.

The photograph appears in 'Golden Years of Wigan' 1998. Part of the caption to this is

"Here a field gun has been sold to the company for scrap. It has been collected from Mesnes Park

as other members of the firm start to take down a shed for further slavage use"

It does not look like a 'shed' to me..............

Bob Grundy

Bob,

You are right it is not a shed, but the tank in post#3 from Centurion being scrapped.

cheers,

Hendo

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Bob,

You are right it is not a shed, but the tank in post#3 from Centurion being scrapped.

cheers,

Hendo

Reports of my having been scrapped are greatly exagerated

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To prevent muddying the waters for you, I will withdraw and leave it to you experts to continue to unearth the necessary information. ..., I'll now leave the field to Sidearm.

NO - please don't do that!!!!

So far as I am concerned the more the merrier. Besides which, I don't live in London and don't have access to the myriad sources on your doorstep. Go to your local reference library and look in microfilmed local newspapers of the time. And look in national newspapers for London stories. Check what clippings files the libary holds in their local studies section. Look out books on local history. Even write letters to local papers and post to your local forums to see what information people have (this has worked wonders for me in the past). But don't think you have nothing to contribute.

Besides which, I'm researching more than just your local tank - I'm interested in all of them, so there's plenty of room for experts on the London tanks to emerge. I can tell you a little more about the Chiswick tank, but not everything. And as I mentioned, there was one in Ealing that had a particularly interesting story. There was one in St Pancras about which I know nothing, etc.

If you need to ask anything there's a number of tank and Tank Corps specialists here, and by all means send me a PM if you wish.

I'll look forward to seeing your future posts.

Gwyn

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P.S. KevinW4, you have added to the knowledge base. I didn't have the location anywhere near as precise as you've been able to locate it. And in doing so you've just scotched the Lincoln rumours. So thank you!

Gwyn

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Gwyn - sorry I missed the post

Kevin W4 - welcome to the Forum - sorry I've been missing for a couple of days.

Harold Morimore was the commander of D1; the first tank ever in action. I was aware that he was born in Chiswick but did not know of the post war link.

Details I have so far are born Chiswick Oct to Dec ‘91, the third child and eldest son of Harvey Mortimore (an engine driver on a steamship) and Anne Louise Mortimore. Pre-war service with City of London Yeomanry. Joined RN Div, initially as an ordinary seaman and served at Antwerp (awarded ‘14 star), appointed Flt Sub Lt RNAS 18 Sep 15; and later served with an anti aircraft unit. Posted to Eastbourne in Feb 16; flew with Flt Sub Lt WM Tait in Avro 504 serial No 179 when it was damaged on 28 Feb 16. RN Commission terminated 19 May 16; commissioned into Army with MMGS. Promoted t/Lt on 15 May 16 and t/Capt 11 Aug 16.

Whilst at Thetford (Jul to Aug 1916), his home address was recorded as 31 Priory Rd, Kew. Joined D Coy initially as a Tank Park officer and commanded a party of 25 men offloading tanks on arrival at Le Havre. Sect Comd (D1, D3, D4 and D5) on 15 Sep ‘16; on 4th Oct accompanied Maj Summers to Hebuterne to identify a new Coy HQ site and stores dump. Later coordinated recces of locations prior to attacks near Beaumont Hamel and Mortimore lead section of six tanks to Auchonvillers on 12 Nov when he was gassed. On 18 Nov Mortimore was in action again at Beaumont Hamel and was reportedly gassed. D Bn history states that Mortimore was the first commander of 11 coy but the war diary states it was Capt Maynard.

Returned to the UK and, from Jan 17, was Adjt of the newly formed F Bn at Bovington (Summers was the CO). He deployed to France on 20 May and served with them at Auchy-les-Hesdin. On 30 Jun 17 he was relieved as Adjt (just before the Bn deployed to The Ypres salient) and returned to the UK due to ill-health. In Dec ‘17 he was at a Convalescent Hosp at Summertown near Eastbourne. He served for the remainder of the war in the UK and relinquished commission “on grounds of ill health contracted whilst on active service” on 8 Mar 19 and retained the rank of Capt. This was cancelled on 3 Apr 19 and he served on until 22 Mar 20 when, on completion of service, he was granted the rank of Captain. His correspondence address was HA&D Taylor, Maltsters, of Sawbridgeworth Herts.

Known as “Morty” he married twice; Dorothy Moorhouse in early (Jan to Mar) ‘18 in Eastbourne whom he divorced for adultery in 1938 (living in Overhill, Springfields, Broxborne, Herts); and on 20th Jan 1939 Mary Boning of Torquay. Later was the company secretary of HA and D Taylor until at least 1957, and a successful local club level golfer, he retired to Torquay and was interviewed by John Foley for the “Boilerplate War”.

I would extremely interested in anything about his pre-war life and his links to Chiswick and his date of death

Stephen

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The rumours were not so much connected with Lincoln as with Lincolnshire as there seems to have been some use of it as a tank bank, in addition to the better known ones, in a campaign around the county - the tank being provided by Fosters. I guess that it was assumed that it went back to Lincoln afterwards.

My point about some tanks being allocated for asociation with tank development (and deployment) was bolstered by a reminiscence from an employee of Newtons (of carrier note) that an additional tank to that awarded Derby in the silver list went to stand outside Newton's factory in Alfreton Rd because the owner "had some patents used in the tanks". This seems to have been a male (there is a seperate mention of a live 6 pounder shell being found when it was dismanrtled). I had thought that Mortimore being involved in the first actions would have been sufficient justification in itself for a Chiswick tank.

You may have seen it before but this account from a Chiswick resident may be of interest

"De Filipis' shoe repair shop was about four doors up from the Pack Horse, righthand side going up the hill to Chiswick Park Station. You are too young to remember the old WW1 tank. It stood at the side of Turnham Green (across the High Road, opp. the Pack Horse, where the public toilets are) and was raised up on a kind of stone bank. It was taken away a couple of years before the Second World War, and we always believed it was back fighting the Jerries! Of course it wasn't, but we liked to think of it that way."

I'd never associated this with the photo of 148

Gwyn do you have a photo of the Barnoldswick tank? - the only one I have shows it being dismantled and its too far gone to tell its sex

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Grrrr

Just gone through the GRO Deaths from 1968 to 1985 looking for a Harold Morimore !

That will teach me to

a) read the post properly, and

B) not to cut and paste

Ho Hum

Grant

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Thank you all for your responses and encouragement.

I am obviously still retaining my interest, it is just a tad daunting as a beginner in this forum to know whether I am a help or a hindrance. :unsure:

I am also glad that I included the reference to Captain Mortimore from Stephen's (delta) book "The First Tank Crews", which then led me here. I can't claim any credit for just "googling"!!

The further reference for the Chiswick tank location corroborates the same spot, facing westwards along CHR towards what is now the Chiswick Roundabout and the M4. In the photograph, it appears that there is a plaque or noticeboard on the wall between the tracks, which would no doubt have given information about the tank and perhaps why it was there. It looks too precisely placed to be a billboard poster, plus the condition of the tank and clarity of the number would tend to indicate that it was fairly soon after being installed. The foliage would therefore be unlikely to be ivy which it resembles, as that would take some years to reach that amount of growth.

I'll post any further "helpful" information and hope that other contributors continue to post also.

Thanks again for the encouragement, I'll try and be of use!!

PS: Please don't scrap Centurion!!

Regards, Kevin

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