38th (Welsh) Div RFA (119th, 120th, 121st and 122nd Bdes )

[huwrevans]

I've not seen any; the Imperial War Museum photo archive is probably your best bet.

Bernard

Thanks for that bernard - excellent site you've got by the way.

My grandfather was from Gwaen Cae Gurwen (see list in Soldies "W/177 Drv John Posthumous Davies") believe his brother joined the infantry (possibly Wesh Fusiliers) - will research that as and when I've got time

Huw

[huwrevans]

Project is coming along nicely - up to W/1360 so far. One thing I have ommited is the officers attached the the Div Arty in Dec 1915. Some promotions are mentioned on the MIC's, but only after they arrived in France.

Anyone know where I can look for a list of the names and numbers of the officers attached in Dec 1915?

Thaks in advance. Huw

[huwrevans]

From 2A History of the 38th (Welsh) Division by J.E.Munby

By the end of October 1914 several thousand volunteers had arrived at Sophia Gardens, Cardiff. From these one Battery was formed (later to become A/120). All suitable for Arty, Engineers or ASC were sent to Porthcawl for training.

All recruits for the Artillery remained at Porthcawl formed into subsections only and were not formed into batteries until the beginning of January 1915. At the beginning of February the four Batteries that had been formed were numbered one to four and sent off to Pwllheli. Then at dates varying from ten days to six weeks later these four Batteries were each ordered to form a second battery: there were thus four pairs of batteries and each of these eight batteries was eventually divided into two, thus making the sixteen batteries of the divisional artillery, each brigade being descended from one of the original four batteries.

But this simple system of expansion was not contemplated from the first: at one time when the twin batteries (No 3 and 7) moved to Cricieth they were accompanied by No 8 and the whole were designated the “fourth Temporary Brigade 43rd Divisional Artillery”.

The only battery that claims an organised existence as such prior to February is A/120 which was formed as Sophia Park Gardens, Cardiff, towards the end of October and went from there with the remainder of the artillery recruits to the training camp at Porthcawl and left there in February as No 1 battery.

The need for equipment was felt even more by the artillery than by the other arms and gun drill had to be carried out with improvised weapons such as a pair of old bus wheels fitted with a pole and hook (so that limbering up could be practiced).

Half the artillery remained at Pwllheli until the move to Winchester and they testify to the kindness of Mr Solomon Anderws and the Township in lending the recreation ground as a drill field.

Horses for all batteries began to arrive (in very small numbers) in April and it was decided tohorse C/121st Battery with all the greys and roans: these horses stayed with the battery until just before the battle of the Somme 1916, when they were exchanged (at St Pol) for bays and browns from the D.A.C. The greys were a feature of the D.A.C until the end.

Does anyone have any local information on the time the units were in N Wales or their time in Winchester?

What was at St Pol in 1916?

[huwrevans]

Some more on the Welsh Divn. RFA prefix etc., based on research I did many years ago in the Welsh Army Corps papers at the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth. If pressed, I'm sure I can find the exact dates & file references.

For example, on 30 June 1915 A/120 Bde RFA gave a total enlisted strength of 716 men, but an actual strength of only 236. The "losses" were made up of 48 discharges, 2 desertions, and 430 transfers to other units (though some of these could well have been to other Welsh batteries).

Later drafts would be unlikely to have used the redundant prefix: for example at Croix Churchyard war cemetery, Croix-Coluyoux, near Le Cateau, is buried 236713 Dvr Alfred Coombes, D/122 Bde RFA (d.25 Oct 1918). I have a feeling I have seen one "W" man buried as far afield as Salonika, but didn't note the details.

Sorry to go on at length, but some of the above may be of use as you continue to explore the whole "W" prefix question.

PS - In case someone remembers seeing this information elsewhere, it is based on an article I wrote for the Orders and Medals Research Society's Journal for Winter 1979, pp275-277.

LST_164

Excellent information as always, thanks for that.

I've got some of the Bde war diary's for Dec 1915 (first 10 pages for 119 & 120) - some issues with arival dates for the other two (120 shown active from August 1915! - NA checking again). Is there any other way I can find the individual Brigade strengths for December 1915, when they departed Winchester to go to France)?

Regards Huw

[clive_hughes]

Huw,

just a guess, but perhaps you could try the 38th Divisional War Diary, or that of its CRA (Commandant Royal Artillery) if such a document exists.

LST_164

[huwrevans]

Huw,

just a guess, but perhaps you could try the 38th Divisional War Diary, or that of its CRA (Commandant Royal Artillery) if such a document exists.

LST_164

Another disturbing thought has just crossed my mind - do you know if the RFA members of the 53rd (Welsh) Div had their numbers prefixed by W/ or was it just those attached to the 38th?

Regards Huw

[clive_hughes]

No, Huw

as TF they had fairly low (and overlapping/duplicating) number sequences starting in 1908, which gave way to set 6-figure blocks at the start of 1917.

If you find someone in the RFA with a low number (eg, 1234) then without further corroborating details it's a bit of a puzzle to decide whether you're dealing with a TF man or a 38th Div one for whom some slip of the pen has cancelled out the all-important prefix (it does happen on certain men's CWGC stones & register details)!

One could hypothesize that if a "W" prefix man was posted to the Welsh RFA TF brigades in the Middle East he should retain his proper number even while serving with them, unless it was deemed better to officially transfer him to the TF (in which case he'd have been issued with a TF number without prefix). Hypothetically, that is...and vice versa, of course!

As I've hinted earlier, I'm almost sure I have seen a man buried in the Balkans who had the "W" prefix, but I haven't access to the printed registers to confirm this one way or another.

I have recently acquired the Registers for Wales & Monmouths excepting Glamorgan if you want anything checking therein - many years ago I identified about 17 "W" men buried in Wales, of whom I now notice two at Denio (St.Beuno) Churchyard, Capel Deugorn, Pwllheli -

W/3098 Dvr. T.Beattie, D Battery, 121 Bde RFA, died 8 May 1915 age 21. Came from Merthyr Tydfil.

W/45 Gnr D.Lewis, 119th Bde Ammunition Column RFA, died 13 Sept 1917. A Pwllheli man.

Also at Pwllheli Borough Cemetery-

W/473 Dvr. H.Williams, B Battery, 199th Bde RFA. Died 27 August 1915, aged 21. No other details. Did they mean 199th, or is it misprint for 119th ???

These are the only candidates from the former Caernarfonshire & Anglesey War Graves.

LST_164

[huwrevans]

W/45 Gnr D.Lewis, 119th Bde Ammunition Column RFA, died 13 Sept 1917. A Pwllheli man.

LST_164

Thanks for that, downloaded up to W/3139 so far. I've come accross a few who have served in the middle east

W/95 Driver John Gilbert - Base Details Selonica

W/643 Driver William Quinn - Egypt

- W/45 Gnr David Lewis appears on one of my local memorials in S.Wales(Glanamman - I'm originally from Garnant) http://www.laugharnewarmemorial.co.uk/page18.htm

Regards Huw

[clive_hughes]

So he does...I hadn't checked him out beyond the Pwllheli next-of-kin address given by the CWGC.

By the way, just in case you haven't got the Establishment figures for strengths of an Infantry Division's Artillery units in 1914, these were:

3 RFA Brigades each of 23 Officers, 772 Other Ranks

1 RFA Howitzer Brigade of 17 Officers 695 ORs

Divisional Ammo Column of 15 Ofrs 553 ORs

Headquarters staff 4 Officers 18 ORs

(also an RGA heavy battery of 6 Ofrs 192 ORs - the 38th Hy. Bty. however did not serve with the Welsh Divn. overseas)

Total 116 Ofrs., 3812 Ors

These figures may include attached personnel from other Arms, eg ASC, AVC

A Brigade of RFA in 1914 was to consist of:

3 Batteries, each of about 5 officers 193 ORs, plus a Brigade Ammo Column of about 3 Officers 155 ORs (119 for Howitzer Brigades, and 29 for RGA). Battery to have 6 x 18-pounder guns or 4 x 4.5-inch Howitzers.

There was an expansion in 1914 to four batteries per Brigade RFA, but the number of guns was reduced. By early 1915 the Divisional Establishment had increased to a total of 128 Ofrs, 4732 ORs.

Source: War Establishments. Part I. Expeditionary Force. 1914 (1914)

Hwyl,

LST_164

[huwrevans]

The CWGC have come up trumps. They've sent me the details (by Brigade) of all the Artilley men killed whilst serving with the 38 Div Arty, not just those with a number prefix of W/

If anyone wants a copy please PM me with your e-mail and I'll send them on.

Huw

[huwrevans]

Gents some clarification please.

Sorting the CWGC information seems to say that "D Battery" of each Brigade was a Howitzer battery - is this correct?

Reason for asking is because some other soldiers are identified as "122 Howitzer Brigade"?

regds Huw

[clive_hughes]

Hello again Huw,

the 38th Welsh Div artillery's "family tree" and changes of title etc seem very complex to me, but here goes...

According to the official Order of Battle of Divisions listing for the 38th Divn, the first battery formed (indeed the only one in 1914 they say) was the eventual A/120 Bde out of the initial mob of recruits at Cardiff. The other 3 btys weren't formed until Jan 1915 at Porthcawl. At Pwllheli fom February, they were ordered to double each battery (virtually forming a "Second Line" like the TF). In March/April each bty was divided again, resulting in 16 batteries in four RFA brigades under the Welsh Divn.

The numbers for three Brigades (119-120-121) were reallocated (together, it says, with the personnel) from the broken-up 30th Divn. Likewise 122 Bde was with its personnel reallocated from the broken-up 31st Divn. (both divns. broken up on 10 April). This doesn't at first glance leave much room for the Welsh recruits!

NEVERTHELESS, it says, each Brigade was still "descended" from an original battery:

120 Bde from No. 1 (Cardiff) Bty

119 Bde from No.2

122 (Howitzer) Bde from No. 3

121 Bde from No. 4

Note: the artillery of the 1st to 4th London Bdes RFA (?TF) were detached from the 36th (Ulster) Divn. by 12 December 1915 to serve with the 38th Div until 3 January 1916, when they left & afterwards joined 56th (1st London) Divn. (TF).

The Order of Battle chart for August 1915 shows each Bde with four batteries (ABCD), but 122 is the Howitzer Bde and no other (H.) batteries shown. Up to the time they embarked for France in December, no change to this situation but that Summer they started to play musical chairs as follows:

24 May 1916:

A/119 became A/122

D/119 became A/119

A(H.)/122 became D(H.)/119

B/120 became B/122

D/120 became B/120

B(H.)/122 became D(H.)/120

C/121 became C/122

D/121 became C/121

D(H.)/122 became D(H.)/121

As to 122 (H.) Bde, between 22 and 24 May 1916 three of its howitzer btys (ABC) were redistributed respectively (see above) as D(H.)/119, D(H.)/120, D(H.)/121; while C(H.)/122 became D(H.)/122.

The remaining btys - A/119, B/120, C/121 joined with C(H.)/122 as above to form the new 122 Bde. It is at this point that the Howitzer Brigade as such breaks up, and is in effect replaced by a How. battery in each brigade instead. Follow me so far??!

On 28-29 August 1916 they made it really complicated:

119 Bde:

C/119 split between A & B (which therefore became 6-gun btys)

D(H.)/120 joins and becomes C(H.)/119

On 14 January 1917, 119 became an Army Field Artillery Bde and so left the 38 Divn. At this point C(H.) Bty split between D(H.)/121 and D(H.)/122 ( become 6-howitzer btys). Also B/179 Bde joins from 39th Divn and is retitled C/119. On 18 January 1917 "L" Section of D(H.)/179 joins and makes D(H.)/119 up to 6 howrs. Also No. 3 Section 38th DAC becomes 119 Bde Ammo. Column.

120 Bde:

28-29 Aug 1916 - 120 Bde broken up as follows - B/120 split as above between A/120 and B/122. A/120 becomes A/121. C/120 joins 122 Bde and is made up to 6 guns with 1 section of C/122, becoming C/122. D(H.)/120 becomes C(H.)/119.

121 Bde:

29 Aug 1916 - A/121 split as above between B & C. A/120 joins and becomes A/121. On 14 January 1917 one section of C(H.)/119 joins making up D(H.)/121 to 6 howrs.

122 Bde:

26-29 Aug 1916 - C/122 split as above between A/122 and C/120. One section B/120 joins and makes up B/122. C/120 joins and made up by 1 section of C/122. C/120 then becomes C/122. On 14 January 1917 1 section of C(H.)/119 joined and made up D(H.)/122 to 6 howrs.

Between 15-21 May 1916 the Brigade Ammo Columns were disbanded and the 38th Divn Ammo Column reorganised.

So after January 1917 the 38 Divn. RFA consists of just 121 Bde (ABC and D(H.) Btys); and 122 Bde (ABC and D(H.) Btys), and remains like this for the duration of the War according to this source.

I knew there was a good reason why I didn't specialise in the RFA...

LST_164

[huwrevans]

Bloomin eck !

Excellent information.

Explains why quite a few W/ prefix gunners came from London and were transferred to the TF.

So tracking an individual without his service record or paybook etc seems a forlorne hope. Looks like I'll have to generalise by following the Brigades through France/Belgium during the course of the war using the CWGC information initially and then the War Diaries when i can get the relevant pages.

Much indebted to you once again.

Regards

Huw

[huwrevans]

Can anyone shed any light on the cause of death (I know the 'drowned one :0) ) for the following RFA soldiers who died in the UK prior do the Div deploying to France

12121 Driver POWELL N L

Ammunition Col 121st Bde

30-Mar-15

Grave Ref. I1. 19 OXFORD (BOTLEY) CEMETERY, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom

W/3098 Driver BEATTIE T

“D" Bty 121st Bde

Age 21 08-May-15

Son of Arthur and Margaret Beattie, of 106, Gil-fach-cyon, Twynrodyn, Merthyr Tydvil. Born at Merthyr Tydvil

Grave Ref. On East boundary DENIO (ST. BEUNO) CHURCHYARD, Caernarvonshire, United Kingdom

W/2883 Acting Bombardier WATKINS THOMAS EDGAR

"D" Bty 120th Bde

Age 29 30-May-15 Drowned

Son of James and Margaret Watkins. Born at Pontypool

Grave Ref. A. 227 PONTYPOOL (PANTEG) CEMETERY, Monmouthshire, United Kingdom

W/17923 Serjeant Major HURST ALFRED

122nd Howitzer Bde

Age 53 02-Jun-15

Husband of Alice Turner (formerly Hurst), of 44, Upper Arundle St., Landport, Portsmouth. Served in the Soudan Campaign

Grave Ref. Pink's. 9. 33 PORTSMOUTH (KINGSTON) CEMETERY, Hampshire, United Kingdom

4284 Gunner GEORGE THOMAS JOHN

D/120th Bde

15-Sep-15

Son of Samuel and Sarah George, of 38, Woodland Terrace, Maesycoed, Pontypridd

Grave Ref. O. 437 PONTYPRIDD (GLYNTAFF) CEMETERY, Glamorganshire, United Kingdom

217 Gunner FORSEY SIDNEY

119th Bde

Age 32 12-Oct-15

Son of John Forsey; husband of Catherine Forsey, of 33, North William St., Newtown, Cardiff

Grave Ref. 1708 WINCHESTER (WEST HILL) OLD CEMETERY, Hampshire, United Kingdom

[clive_hughes]

Huw,

unit retitling/reorganisation and the way in which RFA brigades were removed so as to come under Army command is something which bedevils most if not all Divisions, so far as I can ascertain.

You're right: it plays havoc with tracing personnel too! So for example, if someone is "known" to have been with 119th Brigade RFA it would depend at which point in time that was the case! Individual Service records etc are the only sure way to follow the trail. From a unit history point of view the War Diaries would be best for the purpose.

I wonder if the Londoners with the "W" prefix were men from the former 30th/31st Divns., since these were absorbed into the Welsh Divn. early on? The four London Brigades RFA were only attached to the Divn., for under 3 weeks whilst in France, and after the prefix had ceased to be allocated - so they would have retained their original TF numbering system.

Still, you're building up a good stock of facts & details which hopefully will bear fruit in due course.

All the best,

LST_164

[huwrevans]

Gents, can you shed any light on how the trench Mortar batteries fitted it accross the Brigades or was it a TM Bde (under the DAC perhaps) attached to the Division?

e.g

X38th Trench Mortar Bty Medium

Y38th Trench Mortar Bty Medium

Z38th Trench Mortar Bty Medium

V38th Trench Mortar Bty Heavy

Any idea how they were deployed in the Div TAOR?

Regards Huw

[Aneurin]

217 Gunner FORSEY SIDNEY

119th Bde

Age 32 12-Oct-15

Son of John Forsey; husband of Catherine Forsey, of 33, North William St., Newtown, Cardiff

Grave Ref. 1708 WINCHESTER (WEST HILL) OLD CEMETERY, Hampshire, United Kingdom

Huw

I can't provide any information on the circumstances of Sidney Forsey's death but there is a brief reference to him in the South Wales Daily News of 22 October 1915. It reports that he had six children, was employed in a patent fuel works and died at Winchester. It includes a photograph of him.

Gwyn

[huwrevans]

Hi Folks,

Can anyone help me with identifying the locations of the Batteries for the 122 Bde (Howitzer) in the Neuve Chapelle area for January 1916? Or the locations of the trenches then?

Attached is a copy of the 122 Bde war diary. Is there a way to change the WW1 Grid co-ordinates to modern day locations?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Huw.

[clive_hughes]

Huw,

mapping is not an area where I have any great knowledge, but the maps matching the refs. given may be found in the War Diaries at, say Divisional level, if you happen to be able to go to the NA to consult these.

There are other threads on the Forum explaining how to "read" the references shown if you have the good fortune to get your hands on these sheets.

Alternatively post a separate thread asking which map sheets fit the references given; and also whether anyone might have the time and expertise to fit the references to the geography.

I understand why your post follows on from your related enquiries re. the Welsh RFA, but all a map specialist will see is the "38th Welsh Div" heading to the thread, rather than a request for map assistance, if you get my drift!

LST_164

[larney]

Hi Huw,

Just found this thread!

I may have maps of this area from my 15th Welsh research. I'll have a look tomorrow and see what I have, and then I'll e-mail you.

Steve J.

[huwrevans]

Thanks both. Found some info on how the grid squares were numbered and now trying to look at the google maps of that area to see if I can make the grid in my head match the place names that still exist on the ground. May need to look at some of the 38 Div infantry information and sites.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to get to Kew and it's difficult to order the maps if I can't be specific. I've put the info in another thread to see if anyone else can help.

The Div arty project is coming together slowly and these are just a few 'side enquiries' to get a better feel of the areas where the lads served as I transalte the remaining 3000 or so of their MICs. Helps keep me sane (ish).

Thanks again. Huw

[larney]

Hi Huw,

Here goes!:

HQ

Croix Marmeuse is about 4.5Km east of Rouge Croix, on Map 36ASE2 Lestrem.

A Battery

Croix Barbee is on Map 36SW1 Aubers.

The map reference M26 is actually centred on Croix Barbee village/ crossroads, which is south of Pont du Hem. A Battery Waggon Lines are on Map 36ASE4 Locon (on the edge of the map, with only half a square showing, about 3,000 yards NW of Le Touret).

B Battery

At La Couture, which is on Map 36ASE4 Locon. B Battery Waggon Lines are on Map 36ASE4 Locon, and Mesplaux is just SE of Locon.

C Battery

Is at Le Touret, which is easy enough to get to today, near the Le Touret Memorial. This is on Map 36ASE4 Locon. The Waggon Lines are on Map 36ASE2 Lestrem.

D Battery

Croix Barbee is on Map 36SW1 Aubers. D Battery Waggon Lines are on Map 36ASE2 Lestrem.

I have all of these maps, and could scan and e-mail sectors no problems. Otherwise the WFA trench map service is good, as you can get a couple of large sized trench maps in black and white, which you can take with you to France.

Steve J.

[huwrevans]

Thanks for that Steve.

Any scans of the battery areas would be good. Are you sure the Croix Marmeuse is East of Rouge Croix - wouldn't that put it near Aubers? Or is it NW of Vieille Chapelle?

Never visited the N France - except on autoroute going to Germany. I've never been one to just visit 'tourist spots'. So once I've pulled together enough information on the 38th it will give me some focus on areas to see. Then I'll start researching places to stay etc. Possibly in the summertime and cycle around the sites with my daughter. Thanks again Huw

[larney]

Thanks for that Steve.

Any scans of the battery areas would be good. Are you sure the Croix Marmeuse is East of Rouge Croix - wouldn't that put it near Aubers? Or is it NW of Vieille Chapelle?

Never visited the N France - except on autoroute going to Germany. I've never been one to just visit 'tourist spots'. So once I've pulled together enough information on the 38th it will give me some focus on areas to see. Then I'll start researching places to stay etc. Possibly in the summertime and cycle around the sites with my daughter. Thanks again Huw

Hi Huw,

It is about NW of Vielle Chappelle (And oops-West of Rouge Croix sorry) (I found the road named Rue Croix Marmeuse on Google Maps), but there is no actual place of that name on there now. Seeing as the Batteries were closer to the front, HQ being there makes sense. Grid R.21.c is also there on the trench maps, so it's definately the correct place.

I'm just about to scan that map to show you, and I'll e-mail it in a few minutes. I'll do the others this evening if I get peace from the kids!

Steve.

[huwrevans]

Does anyone know if the gunners of 119 Bde kept their W/ prefix when the Bde left 38 Div to become a Field Army Brigade on 14 Jan 1917?

Or were they issued with new numbers under the new Bde?

Regards

Huw