38th (Welsh) Div RFA (119th, 120th, 121st and 122nd Bdes )

[huwrevans]

Hi,

Starting the long road to compile a complete list of all RFA soldiers attached to 38th (Welsh) Division in December 1915.

Initially by checking the NA MIC for all W/ prefix RFA and then I'll start downloading all identified MIC's and start verifying the database. Porbably be in excess of 4000 soldiers so I'll probably look at doing 250 or 500 at a time. Has anyone got any advice on this sort of thing? Pitfalls to avoid, search tips etc. Looking at around 4-5 years I think.

I know it's a long shot due to the nature of the RFA but any information would be appreciated (on top of what I've already been told in researching W/177 John Posthumous Davies. Thanks to all concerned for all that information).

If you have any information (or are researching) any artillery soldiers with a Regimental Number prefixed by "W/" then please get in touch.

Regards

Huw

[huwrevans]

Having given this some more thought (and before I come to my senses) I've decided to try and build up a database of those who served in the 38th Division Artillery Brigades over the next few years.

I can contact the CWGC and search the local rolls of honour for those that died whilst serving but is there any way I can obtain a list of those assigned to the Welsh Division Artillery at a particular date e.g. in Dec 1915 when the Div arrived in France?

I'm not sure I understand the enormity of the task ahead yet but I think it's worth doing.

So if anyones got any advice, history, help, valium (only kidding - at the momment :0) ) please let me know.

Thanks again

Huw

[Chris_Baker]

You could start by listing all the RFA men with W prefixes to their numbers. Get these from thier medal index cards at the National Archives or Ancestry websites. And then take a very deep breath ...

[huwrevans]

You could start by listing all the RFA men with W prefixes to their numbers. Get these from thier medal index cards at the National Archives or Ancestry websites. And then take a very deep breath ...

Archives hit for W RFA gives 314053 documents in the MIC. A lot more than I'd anticipated!

3,934 results for ("Royal Field Artillery w/") , Date from: 1914, Date to: 1920

Is there a better way to refine my search?

Don't have access to ancestry yet.

Does anyone know of a way I can download this list in a way to put it into a spreadsheet?

I can then start populating the Brigades and then the batteries - starting with those registered with the CWGC.

Does anyone have the information on the breakdown of soldiers in an Arty Bde, Battery in 1914/15? Ex Sigs myself so not my area I'm afraid.

Still we've all got to start somewhere.

[LarsA]

Good info on an artillery brigade here: http://www.1914-1918.net/whatartbrig.htm

Good luck with your project, I'm proud to have two groups of medals to men in the 38th welsh division in my collection. Both went out with the division in 1915.

ATB

/Lars

[battiscombe]

The war establishment of a New Army artillery Bde according to the 1915 establishment lists runs to several pages of tables .. and doubtless in reality was not exactly followed - and fluid .. in brief ...

18pdr Bde x 3 (including attached men :Medics-vets etc): 25 officers 1 warrant officer, 34 Sgts, 44 articifers, 625 ORs = 729

Battery: 4 officers - 7 Sgts (BSM -BQMS-5 Sgts)- 8 articifers (Farrier Sgt- 2 saddlers-3 shoeing smiths- 2 fitters/wheelers)- 115 men (incl 5 Cpls, 9 Bdrs, 47 gunners, 46 Drivers, 8 batmen) ..

Howitzer Bde: 25 -1-33-44-585, total= 687

and then the Divisional Ammunition Column .= 686. there will be movement back and forth between that and the fighting Brigades ..

Tracking down the men looks to be tricky unless you find some proper nominal rolls somewhere - some Bdes do seem to have them somewhere in the records ... (I have managed to identify c.1086 men who served in one Regular artillery Bde, to date ..but am running out of sources .. ) .. searching casualty lists (Commonwealth War Graves..), Brigade diaries, medal rolls (I think these may exist at a brigade level for 1914 star.. but maybe for 1915 star?,), searching medal indexes (on Ancestry you may find a few men identified by Brigade or Battery, e.g 119th Brigade.. or A/119, B/119 etc ...

Divisional diaries (artillery commanders?) may hold more details of non-fatal casualties in their returns??

London Gazette may also list a few men men by unit for medal awards, you can search by Brigade or Battery/ brigade and sometimes get results (its a temperamental search engine)... but I suspect the W/prefix with artillery medal cards is the best way forward. If you can check on Ancestry each likely W/xxx medal card, it will confirm when they went to France at the right time (Nov-Dec 1915 was it not?) which will help identify (with a high probablity - if not certainty) whether they were the 'originals' who went to France then with the relevant Welsh Bdes.. surviving service records and pension records on Ancestry may be traceable thanks to the W/prefix ..

but those 3,934 looks like a good place to start (but there were other Welsh raised Brigades I believe??).. I might guess a minimum of 5,000 + passed through the Brigades during the war?? as turnover of men was quite extensive, due to sickness, transfers, promotions as well as casualties .... Those killed are relatively easily identified .. but the rest are trickier ..

good luck!

dvaid

[pw643]

Huw

I am currently compiling all those that Died RFA to include as much info as available. I have spent nearly a year so far and have around 12,000 names with basic info, around 7,000 of them other accessable details but full details about 400. I will gladly give you any info I have but it is a few decades from completion

Regards

Paul

[huwrevans]

Good info on an artillery brigade here: http://www.1914-1918.net/whatartbrig.htm

Good luck with your project, I'm proud to have two groups of medals to men in the 38th welsh division in my collection. Both went out with the division in 1915.

ATB

/Lars

Thanks for that lars - could you mail (huw.evans@supanet.com) me the details of the two you have? i can then add a post script to the notes about their medals.

Regards Huw

[huwrevans]

Huw

I am currently compiling all those that Died RFA to include as much info as available. I have spent nearly a year so far and have around 12,000 names with basic info, around 7,000 of them other accessable details but full details about 400. I will gladly give you any info I have but it is a few decades from completion

Regards

Paul

Thanks for that Paul,

Still waiting on the CWGC to see what they can help with. My long term aims will be to :

1. Identify all members of the Bde in Dec 1915 by Name Rank Regt No (could be identified by 1915 Star Award?)

2. Download all their MIC and link to individuals.

3. Identify all that died in the war.

4. Add as much information about graves, cenotaphs inscription & family information as I can to No 3 above.

5. Try and identify the Bdes through the 1915 Star medal rolls - never done this before so will need help (hence it's almost last on list)

6. Add in as much Bde history as I can over the coming years.

I'm willing to give all the information I collect to anyone who wants it. It's possible in the future I could create a website for others to use or to add to. I'd be gratefull for anything you can give. You can send it to huwrevans@supanet.com and likewise I'll periodically send you updates on things I find.

Regards Huw

[huwrevans]

The war establishment of a New Army artillery Bde according to the 1915 establishment lists runs to several pages of tables .. and doubtless in reality was not exactly followed - and fluid .. in brief ...

18pdr Bde x 3 (including attached men :Medics-vets etc): 25 officers 1 warrant officer, 34 Sgts, 44 articifers, 625 ORs = 729

Battery: 4 officers - 7 Sgts (BSM -BQMS-5 Sgts)- 8 articifers (Farrier Sgt- 2 saddlers-3 shoeing smiths- 2 fitters/wheelers)- 115 men (incl 5 Cpls, 9 Bdrs, 47 gunners, 46 Drivers, 8 batmen) ..

Howitzer Bde: 25 -1-33-44-585, total= 687

and then the Divisional Ammunition Column .= 686. there will be movement back and forth between that and the fighting Brigades ..

good luck!

dvaid

Thanks for that David. I can create a Bde 'plan' and then fill in the placenames as I progress. Think I'd best keep it to the 1915 star as it should be on their MIC. It'll give me a defined point in time - I can then add in what happened to the individuals after that date over the coming years. The hardest bit(time wise), initially will be to compile to W/ prefix list unless I can find an automated way of doing it. Been in touch with the Nat Archives, CWGC and Brecon Musem as a 'starter for 10" to see what they can help with. Then I think it'll good old fassioned elbow grease !

Regards

Huw

[Chris_Baker]

Brigade history is easy. All the war diaries exist and are at Kew.

[huwrevans]

Brigade history is easy. All the war diaries exist and are at Kew.

Anyone visiting Kew in the near future................................?

Please excuse my ignorance, new to this and have never been to Kew. What format are they in and what sort of detail would they cover?

Regards Huw

[LarsA]

Huw,

got a return when I Emailed, so posting here instead.

Kind regards,

Lars

Huw,

Here are the details of the men whose medals I have. Unfortunately the second group, to Vicarage from Swansea, is missing his 14-15 star. His brother also served in a welsh unit, the 8th RWF.

W-1884 Gunner W H Williams, RFA. Entered France 23/12/1915. (Possibly 119th Brigade, might be Trench Mortars)

W-5513 Gunner Thomas Vicarage (Swansea) Entered France 24/12/1915, A Battery, 121st Brigade RFA. KIA 27/7/1917. Buried Canada Farm Cemetery, Elverdinghe

[Chris_Baker]

The war diaries are the formal operational record of a unit's activities. They vary in terms of detail and quality - and there is often a variation in style and content within a diary as time goes by. Many diaries often have attached orders, maps, action reports, casualty lists and the like. For the whole war of one of the RFA brigades, you are probably looking a a pile of papers three or four inches deep.

[huwrevans]

Huw,

got a return when I Emailed, so posting here instead.

Kind regards,

Lars

Huw,

Here are the details of the men whose medals I have. Unfortunately the second group, to Vicarage from Swansea, is missing his 14-15 star. His brother also served in a welsh unit, the 8th RWF.

W-1884 Gunner W H Williams, RFA. Entered France 23/12/1915. (Possibly 119th Brigade, might be Trench Mortars)

W-5513 Gunner Thomas Vicarage (Swansea) Entered France 24/12/1915, A Battery, 121st Brigade RFA. KIA 27/7/1917. Buried Canada Farm Cemetery, Elverdinghe

thanks for that Lars. huw.evans@virgin.net should work (so should the other one will check it).

So far got a list from W/1 up to W/240 BSM Davies B. Undecided whether to get all the names from the NA MIC list first or start getting a copy of the MIC's themselves to start filling in the gaps/checking the index.

Any thoughts?

Thanks for that Chris, slowly learning and saw a couple of pages from a Bde diary on another page - will leave it until I know more and have specific dates/bdes in mind.

Huw

[huwrevans]

Gents, A question to the knowledgable people out there.

I presumed the prefix W/ was for artillery attached to the 38th Div. I know the Bdes came from London initially (I think) and were in France (3 VC's for the 119 in one action ) before joining the Welsh Div. I presume (again) that anyone transferring to the new Div would have an new number - prefixed with W/.

The question is wouldn't someone being transferred out of the Div have a new number with the prefix removed?

See attached card - did he join the original Bde, transfer to the Welsh and then return to London ?

Any Ideas?

Thanks Huw

[huwrevans]

Hi folks,

I'm getting a little confused here - and I don't think it's just my age :0)

Discovered two Regt Numbers the same in Royal Field Artillery and both seem to be active at the same time.

W/278 Bombadier James P

W/278 Gunner Parnham Harry Geo

Any ideas what's going on or what I'm reading wrong?

Regards Huw

[clive_hughes]

Hello Huw,

an initial response re. your request for more information on Welsh Div RFA men:

In the days when I collected medals I had the following:

Military Medal (MM), 1914-15 star & Victory to: W-3327 Gnr. E.Brickell. No specific unit RFA on the MM, but the London Gazette entry for 11 February 1919 gave his residence as Lymm, Cheshire, and his unit as B/119 Bde. RFA

1914-15 Star Trio to W-1366 Gnr/Sgt. H.Hughes, with BEF Recreational Training medallion, engraved "38th Divn Cross-Country Race...1st "C" Bty. 122 Bde. RFA Sgt. Hughes Feb. 1918".

1914-15 Star & Victory to W-4389 Gnr T.Prosser RFA

1914-15 Star (single) to W-5088 Shoeing-Smith D.Williams RFA

I'll add to this the following Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) winners whose Gazette entries or regimental numbers seem to show a link to the Welsh Divn RFA:

W/147 Dvr W.H.Church L.Gaz. 17 Sept 1917

W/3350 Sgt F.Dronfield MM - unit given as 505th Bty., 65th Bde. L.Gaz. 11 March 1920 (Frank Dronfield: has 2 MICs one of which actually gives his DCM Gazette as 3 June 1919 instead. The other confirms his arrival in France 23 Dec 1915)

W/824 Sgt R.A.Evans L.Gaz. 3 March 1917

W/2203 Sgt H.Gibson L.Gaz. 3 Sept 1918

W/952 BQMS R.Grenfell L.Gaz. 6 Feb 1918

W/1434 Gnr J.H.Gummery, attached Y/38th Trench Mortar Bty. L.Gaz. 11 March 1920

28067 BSM (Actg. RSM) E.G.J.Hone, HQ 119 Bde. L.Gaz. 11 March 1920

W/3285 Gnr W.Howells B/122 Bde L.Gaz. 16 Jan 1919

54871 Sgt (Actg. BSM) P.Humphreys MM, C/122 Bde L.Gaz. 11 March 1920

W/305 Sgt I.W.Jones MM L.Gaz. 28 March 1918

W/1963 Sgt T.Jones C/122 Bde L.Gaz. 11 March 1920

W/2774 Sgt E.Lewis C/122 Bde L.Gaz. 3 Sept 1919

121347 Cpl (Actg. Sgt) E.McCann 38th Divn. Ammunition Column L.Gaz. 11 March 1920

W/3089 Gnr A.Morgan L.Gaz. 3 Sept 1918

W/374 Sgt J.Perkins MM, B/122 Bde L.Gaz. 3 Sept 1919

This list seems to show that some men (Dronfield) may have joined the Welsh Div RFA but eventually served with other formations. They may have been transferred away from the 38th Divn units, but kept their regimental numbers nevertheless. Others (Hone, Humphreys, McCann) must have transferred from another RFA unit into the 38th Divn, or enlisted after the eventual cut-off date for the distinctive W-prefix number. Edward McCann's MIC shows only a BWM/Victory pair, so he first served abroad sometime after 1 January 1916 (not conclusive, but after the bulk of the Welsh RFA had disembarked).

Hope this helps. Will post again re. the numbering allocation.

LST_164

[clive_hughes]

Some more on the Welsh Divn. RFA prefix etc., based on research I did many years ago in the Welsh Army Corps papers at the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth. If pressed, I'm sure I can find the exact dates & file references.

The idea of a "Welsh Army" was first made by Lloyd George in a speech on 19 September 1914, and quickly put into action by various figures in the Principality. The movement was boosted in the media as a completely Welsh enterprise, and the project at times was referred to as the "Welsh National Army" or "The Welsh Contingent of H.M's Forces". It seemed for a while as though men raised for this new force had to be distinguished from other "Kitchener" troops, and indeed I have seen on 1914 Ancestry Service papers notes identifying recruits as "Welsh Army".

The War Office sanction to raise a "Welsh Army Corps" ref. W.O. 20/Gen./3449 (A.G.1) was dated 10 October, and specifically referred to Infantry only. Artillery wasn't even considered until November. Military experts insisted that the 38th's artillery shouldn't be raised at all, as they would take 2 years to train to the point of usefulness (similar arguments had been made against the entire "Kitchener" movement). Western Command also weighed in with the opinion that "Wales, generally speaking, is hardly a country in which we find desirable artillery recruits" (!!).

But while this negativity was being aired at the higher levels, the Welsh Divn artillery was quietly coming into being at the Sophia Gardens, Cardiff, when Colonel Pearson was told to begin forming the core elements of the supporting arms out of a crowd of recruits who were surplus following the formation of the 10th & 13th (Rhondda) Battalions, Welsh Regiment. He blithely paraded them, and apparently marched down the ranks pointing to blocks of men and declaring every so often "You are now RE...you are now ASC...you are now RA". This was most irregular and highly confusing to the authorities, as the men were suddenly transferred to corps which had diferent rates of pay to the Infantry, without having been properly attested for those Arms!

The sources suggest that by 23 November 1914 the RFA element consisted of 60 men. At the end of the month they moved to Porthcawl and quickly rose to 319. Trying to keep up with events, on 9 December the RA Record Office at Woolwich issued the Welsh Artillery with a 1000-man personal number block from 61730 to 62729. However, the nationalistic aims and ideas of the movement somehow kicked in at this point, and on 19 December Woolwich sent a telegram to the Welsh Army Corps supplying a block that simply ran from 1 to 1000, superseding the previous numbers. On 2 January 1915 they amplified this with a note stating "the men enlisted for the corps in question have to be kept separate from the RFA units"(my italics).

No mention of a "W" prefix, but it came into use over the next few months as the artillery continued to expand, and certainly by early May 1915. For one thing it helped to differentiate these men from the low-number Territorials. No other Welsh Divn unit was given such a prefix. Artillery strength was 561 on 9 January 1915; 1195 by 1 February; 1800 by 1 March; and approx. 4700 by the close of recruiting on 28 May. With the 38th Divn virtually complete, the War Office took over and severed the Divn artillery from the Divisional Reserves, the surplus men being attached to (non-Welsh) Reserve Brigades at Portsmouth. Interestingly, the Welsh press followed up allegations of men being re-transferred to non-Welsh units until the Military Service Acts in 1916 gave the War Office powers to allocate men more or less as they pleased.

The original CWGC War Graves Registers for Wales and Monmouthshire showed 17 "W" prefix burials in the Principality, one as late as March 1920, with numbers ranging from W-45 to W-4952. Some were serving with general Reserve Brigades of RFA. The numbers I have seen do not seem to extend too far beyond W-5000, and some of these would not appear on MIC cards because they never served overseas.

For example, on 30 June 1915 A/120 Bde RFA gave a total enlisted strength of 716 men, but an actual strength of only 236. The "losses" were made up of 48 discharges, 2 desertions, and 430 transfers to other units (though some of these could well have been to other Welsh batteries).

Later drafts would be unlikely to have used the redundant prefix: for example at Croix Churchyard war cemetery, Croix-Coluyoux, near Le Cateau, is buried 236713 Dvr Alfred Coombes, D/122 Bde RFA (d.25 Oct 1918). I have a feeling I have seen one "W" man buried as far afield as Salonika, but didn't note the details.

Sorry to go on at length, but some of the above may be of use as you continue to explore the whole "W" prefix question.

PS - In case someone remembers seeing this information elsewhere, it is based on an article I wrote for the Orders and Medals Research Society's Journal for Winter 1979, pp275-277.

LST_164

[huwrevans]

That's fantastic. I'm learning more and more every day, due to the generosity of people like yourself.

Thank you.

Huw

[Aneurin]

But while this negativity was being aired at the higher levels, the Welsh Divn artillery was quietly coming into being at the Sophia Gardens, Cardiff, when Colonel Pearson was told to begin forming the core elements of the supporting arms out of a crowd of recuits who were surplus following the formation of the 10th & 13th (Rhondda) Battalions, Welsh Regiment.

LST_164

This was probably Lieutenant Colonel Thomas William Pearson DSO RFA (1872-1957). He was a very well known rugby player, having won 13 caps on the wing for Wales (1891-1903) and captained Cardiff RFC in 1892-3. He also played hockey for Wales, won the Welsh tennis doubles title and captained Newport Golf Club.

Gwyn

[huwrevans]

Thanks again. When forming the new Bdes would the memebrs of the 'old' brigades have transferred in ? E.g 119th Bde were active in France in 1914/15, as mentioned above. I presume they would have been given 'new W/' numers if they were?

I've downloaded as many MIC as I can find up to W/500. Now going to confirm details on them with that in my spreadsheet and add is as much as I can, date of award, death, burial place, memorial etc.

Regards

Huw

[huwrevans]

Thanks again. When forming the new Bdes would the memebrs of the 'old' brigades have transferred in ? E.g 119th Bde were active in France in 1914/15, as mentioned above. I presume they would have been given 'new W/' numers if they were?

I've downloaded as many MIC as I can find up to W/500. Now going to confirm details on them with that in my spreadsheet and add is as much as I can, date of award, death, burial place, memorial etc.

Regards

Huw

Appologies for my ignorance. it was 119th Bty that saw action in 1914 - slight confusion in that one of the VC winners (BSM Dorrell) joined 119Bde as Commander of A bty and returned to France with 38 Div.

Does anyone know if any photographs of the 38 Div Arty still exist? Regards Huw

[Bernard_Lewis]

I've not seen any; the Imperial War Museum photo archive is probably your best bet.

Bernard

[RobertBr]

Huw

Most downloads I have seen are not suitable for direct import into a spreadsheet.

I dabble in VBA for MSWord, Excel etc so my inclination would be to copy and paste into MSWord and then produce a macro to reformat the ouput.

As a basic rule if the MSWord data can be converted into a table (On the toolbar select 'Table' - 'Convert' - 'Text to Table') then it can easily be imported to a spreadsheet.

If the downloads truly follow a standard format this could be quite easy, If not ....

Good Luck

Bob