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Remembered Today:

87th Canadian Grenadier Guards Uniform


Sandrews

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Good afternoon one and all. I thought I would post the URL to pictures of a Uniform Coat and Hat from the 87th with orgional cloth patches, buttons and badges. These uniform items are from my wifes family who had many males that served in WW1 for Canada and England. We are still trying to figure out who owned the Coat from her family. The items are as they were since WW1 nothing added or taken away.

I know little about this type of Uniform so any and all information is welcome.

I would also welcome any comments on the items as well.

Question: Is this a common Uniform for collectors?

Is there any way to look service records for Candian military for WW1?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10604399@N08/

Steve Andrews

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Hi,

very nice grouping. Not common, but not uncommon. CEF tunics turn up on a regular basis, so somewhatt common, however the units are very random, so in this respect uncommon. They are collectible, I have a few myself and frinds of mine have many.

you can find general uniform information here on tony schnurr's website:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/ceftp/index.htm

You can search for service records here if you yhink you know a name:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databas...ef/index-e.html

Good luck,

Scott

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Steve:

That is an 87th shoulder patch, no question. They were 11th Infantry Brigade, 4th Canadian Division.

I have the unit history and the photographs of all the original men of the CGG. Can you give me a name or regimental number? If you have their names I can tell you quickly what unit they all served with. Middle names and birth dates as well if they are all of the same last name.

All of their service records are available in Canada as well.

Tell me more?

Richard

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UPDATE:

I sent the link to Sgt. Carlevaris at the Grenadier Guards in Montreal. He tells me he has not seen those buttoms, although he has a number of pre WWII buttons. He thinks perhaps they are post-WWI. Jesse is going to check at the CGG museum and get back to us on this question.

Sgt Jesse Carlevaris

Company Sergeant-Major

Canadian Grenadier Guards, Montreal

Hope that helps .... standing by for Jesse!

Richard

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Richard thanks for the info.

I have done a bit of looking and have some info but still incomplete.

The uniform came from the house of a man named Lyall Starke who was from Farnham Quebec , he was married to my wifes fathers sister.

Lyall Starke accession papers state that he joined the 245th CGG "Montreal Grenadiers" on Oct2,1916.His regimental # is 1057087. From what I can tell the 245th was a reserve unit. I can only think that Lyall was transfered into the 87th some time during the war which is how he got the uniform. I would like to see his service records, but it looks like it will be a very costly thing to obtain.

If I find out anything more I will post it. If anyone can offer any other info please let me know.

Steve Andrews

Steve:

That is an 87th shoulder patch, no question. They were 11th Infantry Brigade, 4th Canadian Division.

I have the unit history and the photographs of all the original men of the CGG. Can you give me a name or regimental number? If you have their names I can tell you quickly what unit they all served with. Middle names and birth dates as well if they are all of the same last name.

All of their service records are available in Canada as well.

Tell me more?

Richard

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The 245th was assigned regimental numbers 1057001 to 1060000 (see the Matrix listing) so that is a correct match for 1057087.

The 245th was organized in Montreal in 1916 and was absorbed by the 23rd Reserve Battalion to provide reinforcements to the Canadian Corps in the field.

The 23rd Reserve Battalion definitely fed reinforcements to the 87th Infantry Battalion (see Matrix Utility for the Reserve Battalions) and the references show the 245th affiliated with the 87th.

A complete service record takes about 30 days to obtain and generally they are in the order of $25 to $30 Canadian, but it is at 40 cents per page and I had one set that cost $74 so you don't know until you get it! You can also ask one of the Ottawa lads in the CEFSG to take a peek at this file the next time they are at Library and Archives Canada.

Richard

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Richard again thank you very much for your time and effort in supplying me with the information.

If your friend comes back about more info on the buttons on the tunic please let me know. I am very interested.

Steve Andrews

The 245th was assigned regimental numbers 1057001 to 1060000 (see the Matrix listing) so that is a correct match for 1057087.

The 245th was organized in Montreal in 1916 and was absorbed by the 23rd Reserve Battalion to provide reinforcements to the Canadian Corps in the field.

The 23rd Reserve Battalion definitely fed reinforcements to the 87th Infantry Battalion (see Matrix Utility for the Reserve Battalions) and the references show the 245th affiliated with the 87th.

A complete service record takes about 30 days to obtain and generally they are in the order of $25 to $30 Canadian, but it is at 40 cents per page and I had one set that cost $74 so you don't know until you get it! You can also ask one of the Ottawa lads in the CEFSG to take a peek at this file the next time they are at Library and Archives Canada.

Richard

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It is interesting that on his attestation papers that it actually says "Canadian Grenadier Guards" as the reference texts just refer to them as the "Montreal Grenadiers", as over this side of the pond it is the 87th Battalion we refer to as the "Canadian Grenadier Guards". Every day we learn something new.

For those not familiar with Canadian Attestation papers, Lyall's are here:

Lyle's Attestation Papers

For anyone that wants to order papers from Canada you can do that on-line, Telefax or snail mail but not by e-mail. The critical information is what is shown on the page shown in the link, which in this case would be:

Name: STARKE, LYALL

Regimental number(s): 1057087

Reference: RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 9243 - 48

Date of Birth: 03/10/1897

Above that information on his page you will see the following line:

How to consult a file on-site or order a copy of the complete file

So that is a hyperlink to take you to the instructions how to order the documents.

Richard

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Hi,

I'd like to see an up-close picture of the buttons, if possible.

Also, FYI, the 245th was specifically raised as a replacemnt for the 87th Bn, so you'll see all their stuff bearing Guards' motifs. For example, we have several recruiting posters for the 245th which say 'Canadian Grenadier GUards' on them, and their cap badge was nearly identical to the 87th's, and to the one we still wear today, in fact. I have apicture of all these badges side-by-side, if anyone is interested.

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May be of interest from Library and Archives Canada:

The 23rd Canadian Reserve Battalion was organized at Shorncliffe on 4 January 1917. The battalion was formed by absorbing the 23rd and 117th Battalions under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel F.W. Fisher. Its authorization was published in Canadians' Routine Order 271 of 20 March 1917. The battalion also absorbed the 244th Battalion on 24 April 1917 and the 245th Battalion on 14 May 1917. On 11 May 1917, the 199th Battalion and the 22nd Canadian Reserve Battalion were absorbed and the 23rd was designated the 23rd Canadian Reserve Battalion (199th Duchess of Connaught's Own Irish Canadian Rangers). The 23rd Canadian Reserve Battalion reinforced the 14th and 24th Battalions, and after 11 May 1917, it also reinforced the 87th Battalion and the 5th Canadian Mounted Rifles. The battalion moved to Shoreham on 5 January 1917, Bramshott on 11 October 1917 and Ripon on 2 February 1919. The 23rd Canadian Reserve Battalion returned to Canada on 4 July 1919 and was disbanded by General Order 149 of 15 September 1920.
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I will see what I can do in getting better pictures of the buttons for you in the next couple of days.

Steve Andrews

Hi,

I'd like to see an up-close picture of the buttons, if possible.

Also, FYI, the 245th was specifically raised as a replacemnt for the 87th Bn, so you'll see all their stuff bearing Guards' motifs. For example, we have several recruiting posters for the 245th which say 'Canadian Grenadier GUards' on them, and their cap badge was nearly identical to the 87th's, and to the one we still wear today, in fact. I have apicture of all these badges side-by-side, if anyone is interested.

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Good morning, I am adding a link to a closer picture of the button on the Tunic as requested. The buttons show a lot of wear. If the picture is not close enough please let me know and I will see what I can do.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10604399@N08/2904677356/

Steve Andrews

Hi,

I'd like to see an up-close picture of the buttons, if possible.

Also, FYI, the 245th was specifically raised as a replacemnt for the 87th Bn, so you'll see all their stuff bearing Guards' motifs. For example, we have several recruiting posters for the 245th which say 'Canadian Grenadier GUards' on them, and their cap badge was nearly identical to the 87th's, and to the one we still wear today, in fact. I have apicture of all these badges side-by-side, if anyone is interested.

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  • 7 months later...

Good day all, I was up at my in-laws this past week and was able to secure the pictures, VictoryWW1 medal and dog tags among other items for Lyall Starke who owned the Uniform Tunic posted here. I will share the pdf images with who ever is interested.

Steve

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The buttons are pre-war and wartime Canadian general service buttons, not uncommon really and would typically appear on a candian made tunic versus a UK made one. you can make them out on one of tony Scnurr's tunics shown here http://www.kaisersbunker.com/ceftp/ceftp28.htm

Some units shed these buttons as they had their own disitnct unit buttons made. What I do find intersting is that the tunic has the shoulder numerals being used as collars, not strictly regulation but not unuusal for a demob tunic.

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The buttons are pre-war and wartime Canadian general service buttons, not uncommon really and would typically appear on a candian made tunic versus a UK made one. you can make them out on one of tony Scnurr's tunics shown here http://www.kaisersbunker.com/ceftp/ceftp28.htm

Some units shed these buttons as they had their own disitnct unit buttons made. What I do find intersting is that the tunic has the shoulder numerals being used as collars, not strictly regulation but not unuusal for a demob tunic.

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Thanks for the info, your comment about the unit number on the collar instead of the shouler is interesting, I have his unit picture and all of the men in the picture are wearing the unit number on there collar.

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  • 9 years later...

Agree re buttons. Common for Canadian tunics. Found a few in fields of Somme.

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