'Etrangers' note on MIC

[Clive Temple]

Any idea on this pals?

A note on the back of an MIC (Astley Peregrine Wheeler of the East Surreys) says this...

O/C 9th Bn. East Surreys enquires whether five men who claim to have served in the 2nd Regt. Etrangers (sic) are entitled to the 1914 star.

A note on the front says 'ineligible for the 1914 star'.

Is this a reference to men who fought with the Foreign Legion? If so can anyone please point me towards any further info on line.

Apologies if this is totally wrong!!!

[squirrel]

I should think that this does refer to the Deuxieme Regiment Etrangers or French Foreign Legion and if the man had been serving with them he would not be entitled to the Star as he was not serving with British forces.

[SteveE]

Clive

I agree that it is a reference to the man having served with the Foreign Legion. I too have come across references to men of 'my' battalion having enlisted/served with the Legion prior to joining the British army but have no idea how to follow that up.

If anybody knows if it's possible to research French Foreign Legion records I too would be very interested....

Regards

Steve

[Clive Temple]

Clive

I agree that it is a reference to the man having served with the Foreign Legion. I too have come across references to men of 'my' battalion having enlisted/served with the Legion prior to joining the British army but have no idea how to follow that up.

If anybody knows if it's possible to research French Foreign Legion records I too would be very interested....

Regards

Steve

Thanks Steve, can anyone offer an opinion as to why a man would volunteer for the Legion? I know the romantic image is of criminals and assorted n'er do wells that wish to find a life of anonymity (plus of course Stan and Ollie) but were there any other more mundane reasons? I don't know of any French links for this chap as yet.

[59165]

Clive.Here's a bit of a starting point for you;

les chats noire

Dave.

[Ron Clifton]

Thanks Steve, can anyone offer an opinion as to why a man would volunteer for the Legion? I know the romantic image is of criminals and assorted n'er do wells that wish to find a life of anonymity (plus of course Stan and Ollie) but were there any other more mundane reasons? I don't know of any French links for this chap as yet.

Hello Clive

They might have been discharged from the British Army having served their full twelve years; they might have been discharged with a bad character; or for any other reason (not necessarily dishonourable) which caused the British Army to decline their further services. A non-British father, perhaps, making the man not an automatic British subject? (Aliens were not enlisted in peacetime.)

Ron

[SteveE]

can anyone offer an opinion as to why a man would volunteer for the Legion? I know the romantic image is of criminals and assorted n'er do wells that wish to find a life of anonymity (plus of course Stan and Ollie) but were there any other more mundane reasons? I don't know of any French links for this chap as yet.

Found this on a website......

"C'est que, comme en 1870, des milliers de volontaires étrangers demandèrent à servir dans ses rangs sur le front de France.

Encadrés par des éléments venus d'Afrique, 4 Régiments de Marche furent constitués, 3 par le 1er Étranger, 1 par le 2ème Étranger. Ils s'illustrèrent en Argone – 4ème R. M, du 1er Étranger, Régiment Garibaldien-, en Artois – 2ème R. M. du 1er Étranger, en Champagne – 2ème R. M. du 1er Étranger et 2ème R. M. du 2ème Étranger

Les effectifs ayant été considérablement réduits tant à la suite des sacrifices consentis sur ces divers champs de bataille qu'après le reversement à leurs armées nationales des volontaires de diverses nationalités alliées, un seul Régiment de Marche de Légion Étrangère fut constitué le 11 novembre 1915."

My O-Level French is limited to say the least but I think the general gist of the text is saying this about the Legion.....

"As in 1870, thousands of foreign volunteers demanded to serve in their ranks at the front in France. Joined by elements from Africa, four Infantry Battalions were formed, three by 1er Etranger and one by 2eme Etranger. They were based in Argone - 4th Infantry Battalion of 1er Etranger, in Artois - 2nd Infantry Battalion of 1er Etranger, in Champagne 2nd (3rd?) Infantry Battalion of 1er etranger and 2nd Infantry Battalion of 2eme Etranger.

Their strengths were considerably reduced as a result of sacrifices on the battlefields (and) where, after the return of the volunteers to their own national armies, a single Infantry Battalion of the Foreign Legion was formed on 11 November 1915."

Based on this it looks as if there was a rush of foreign nationals to enlist into the Legion, perhaps based on the 'romanticised' image of the Legion and the adventure that came with it and then subsequently some "mechanism" put in place to return them to their own national army. Does anybody know what and how this 'mechanism' worked, how was a legionnaire returned to the UK for instance?

Any ideas (and a better translation of the above text) greatfully received.

Steve

[SteveE]

I should think that this does refer to the Deuxieme Regiment Etrangers or French Foreign Legion and if the man had been serving with them he would not be entitled to the Star as he was not serving with British forces.

MICs confirm they were not entitled to the Star but annotated on the back of one of the five men's MIC is the request for a "permit to claim Medaille Comm. Francaise", I wonder if permission was granted and how one goes about researching that.

Steve

[Ron Clifton]

Steve

You might try searching in the London Gazette. Any member of the Armed Forces who was awarded a foreign "gong" and wished to wear it on his British uniform had to get the King's permission, which was given through the Gazette.

Ifit was not to be worn, or only worn with civvies, no permission was needed but at least you can try the Gazette.

There are one or two other threads on this topic in the "Uniforms...and medals" section.

Ron

[Michael Johnson]

I think that he is claiming the French medal for service in the Great War. http://france-phaleristique.com/1418ar.htm

Presumably he wouldn't claim the French Victory Medal since he had the British one.

[SteveE]

You might try searching in the London Gazette. Any member of the Armed Forces who was awarded a foreign "gong" and wished to wear it on his British uniform had to get the King's permission, which was given through the Gazette.

Thanks for that thought, I was under the impression that Gazette entries of foreign awards were only really for the more 'important' ones, not the commemorative medal type that was being applied for here. I'll have a look anyway just to see if anything is there.

Steve

[SteveE]

I think that he is claiming the French medal for service in the Great War. http://france-phaleristique.com/1418ar.htm

Presumably he wouldn't claim the French Victory Medal since he had the British one.

Thanks Michael, the medal you've linked to is the same one that I thought he was claiming. I wonder if he ever got it?

I also agree that, as each of the allied (and associated) countries produced a Victory medal for their own nationals, he wouldn't be entitled to the French version.

Steve

[Michael Johnson]

My grandfather's service record is silent on which French medals he was entitled to, but presumably the Commemorative and Victory Medal. He probably was blissfully unaware that he also could have applied for the British War Medal for his service as an interpreter with the BEF. Lots of them in the MICs.

As far as I know he never applied for any of his medals. Perhaps he felt that as he wasn't in action, and then was pulled in 1915 to run his munitions factory back in Canada, he didn't deserve them. Of course he would have had to buy his French ones, but since he visited his family back in France every few years that wouldn't have been a problem.

[Michael Johnson]

The MIC for Capt L. de St Andre has a notation that the Star is confined to British subjects only.

[Clive Temple]

MICs confirm they were not entitled to the Star but annotated on the back of one of the five men's MIC is the request for a "permit to claim Medaille Comm. Francaise", I wonder if permission was granted and how one goes about researching that.

Steve

Out of interest Steve, how did you know who the 5 were?

[SteveE]

Out of interest Steve, how did you know who the 5 were?

Luck really. I found Astley Wheeler's MIC and searched numbers either side of it.

8664 - Roger Gaud (maybe Gand).

8665 - John Hughes.

8666 - Marcel E Williams (this is an assumption as his MIC isn't on Ancestry yet).

8667 - Astley Wheeler.

8668 - Hugh Gooding.

Regards

Steve

[Keith_history_buff]

Here is the information from two <<matricule militaire>> entries in two different départements in Brittany

8666 - Marcel E Williams 

Quote

10th January 1894

Marcel Edgar Joseph Williams was born in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom in 1894 to Maria Anna and Joseph Williams
Engagé volontaire pour la durée de la guerre a Lorient le 22 août pour le 2e Regiment de la Legion étrangère. Arrivé au corps et Soldat de 2e classe le 23 août 1914. Engagement annulé pour passer dans l'armée anglaise le 2 février 1915.

 

 

 

8667 - Astley Wheeler

Quote

19th November 1883

Astley Fowke Peregrine Wheeler was born in Wandsworth, London, United Kingdom. He was in Panama prior to the outbreak of war.

Engagé volontaire le 27 août au titre de la Legion étrangère pour la durée de la guerre devant M. le Sous-Intendant Militaire a St Malo (application du télégramme ministeriel du 6 août 1914.( Arrivé au corps le 29 Octobre 1914 et Soldat de 2e classe le dit jour. Libéré par annulation d'engagement pour passer dans l'armée anglaise le 1er février 1915.

 

[SteveE]

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 13:47, Keith_history_buff said:

Here is the information from two <<matricule militaire>> entries in two different départements in Brittany

Keith

 

Can I enquire where you found that information please?

 

Regards

 

Steve

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Steve, the matricule militaires are online for the two different départements in Brittany.

 

This is the link to the centralised portal that I used:
http://www.culture.fr/eng/Genealogie/Grand-Memorial

Regards,
Keith

[Keith_history_buff]

I was not able to successfully find details for the other men, though.

Independent research would suggest that Roger Gaud was from Mauritius, and was a student in the UK before the war. On the 1911 Census he resides at 67 Margaret Street, Marylebone.

[SteveE]

19 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Hi Steve, the matricule militaires are online for the two different départements in Brittany.

 

This is the link to the centralised portal that I used:
http://www.culture.fr/eng/Genealogie/Grand-Memorial

Keith

 

Many thanks for the link, it's appreciated.  I did try it for men on 'my' list but to no avail I'm afraid.

 

Regards

 

Steve

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Steve,

It did seem as though these men joined via "unconventional" routes. Had they joined via conventional routes, the secrecy of the Legion would still be hiding this from us! I did try to find numerous other Britons in the Legion, but to no avail.

Regards
Keith

[healdav]

On 17/09/2008 at 00:16, SteveE said:

Found this on a website......

 

Based on this it looks as if there was a rush of foreign nationals to enlist into the Legion, perhaps based on the 'romanticised' image of the Legion and the adventure that came with it and then subsequently some "mechanism" put in place to return them to their own national army. Does anybody know what and how this 'mechanism' worked, how was a legionnaire returned to the UK for instance?

Any ideas (and a better translation of the above text) greatfully received.

Steve

Not necessarily a romanticised view of the Legion. There were many thousands of expatriates in France working, or even born there of foreign parents. They were, in the main, not able to join directly the French army as such, so they joined the Legion.