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percentage of jocks' in ww1


Skipman
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Would i be right in saying there was a higher percentage of jocks per population,fought in ww1 ,than say ,English,and what percentage of the forum membership are jocks? There seems to be a few,myself included.

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Mike,

I cannot answer both questions directly but as a starter have you read Trevor Royle's Book,The Flowers of the Forest,Scotland and the First World War?

It certainly addresses parts of your question.

George

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Thanks George,will add it to my chrissie pressie request list.I suppose when conscription came in,the percentage just reflected the population in Britain,but before that the regular army had a fair percentage of Scots.

the forum certainly seems to have it's fair share of us.

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Not much to do beyond your crofts or tenements?

Tired of your haggis-weaving workshops?

Just need to get away from bagpipes for a while? A long while?

Join the GWF.

:lol:

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Not much to do beyond your crofts or tenements?

Tired of your haggis-weaving workshops?

Just need to get away from bagpipes for a while? A long while?

Join the GWF.

:lol:

Just for you, Chris. :D

Regards,

Rab

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What is the definition of a 'jock'? If my parents or a parent were born in Scotland but I was born in say Basildon, am I a Jock? (my parents weren't so don't worry anyone that knows me can rest easy). The reason I ask is that I know someone who was born 300 hundred miles south of Scotland of Scots parents but affects a scots accent and wears a kilt, he also wants something called home rule and truely believes the Scots won WW1 and 2.

Mick

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Mike,

From Trevor Royle's Book.

"The precise numbers of Scottish War dead are difficult to compose exactly but it is possible to reach come conclusions about the level of the losses.At the end of the war the official figure was put at 74,000 but this was decided by the unsound method of dividing the British total by ten to reflect the fact that Scots made up 10 per cent of the U.K's. population.Later, when plans were being made to build a national war memorial for Scotland in the 1920's this was revised to 100,000,or 13 per cent of the British total.Later still,the same memorial recorded the names of 148,218 Scots from around the world "killed in the service of the Crown" and the figure is still being increased as new information becomes available.It has also been suggested that the Scottish death rate was only exceeded by that of Serbia and Turkey,this is based on a statistic that the total Scottish casualties as a percentage of those mobilised was 26.4 per cent(the percentage in Serbia and Turkey being respectively 37.1 per cent and 26.8 per cent).With a total of 690,235 Scots having been mobilised,however,this would make the Scottish total 182,222,a figure that is clearly too high."

George

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The following figures come from General Annual Reports on the British Army, published for Parliament in 1921 and covering the six years from 1 Oct 1913.

Percentage of male population represented by enlistments:

England 24.02 %

Scotland 23.71 %

Wales 21.52 %

Ireland 6.43 % (where there was no conscription)

This represents country of residence, not birth, at the time of enlistment.

Many Canadian soldiers would have been first-generation immigrants, a fairly high proportion of whom came from Scotland. The same is true of other Dominions, but probably to a slightly lesser extent.

It really does depend on your definition of "jock" as others have pointed out. You could well say that Scotland may have provided a higher proportion than England or Wales according to country of birth, or parents' birth, and you might well be right, but not by all that much.

The quality of the Scottish contribution is, in my view, more important than the quantity. There were Scottish divisions among the very best. The English, Welsh and Irish had some very good divisions, too. So did the Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders ...

Ron

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What is the definition of a 'jock'? ........ The reason I ask is that I know someone who was born 300 hundred miles south of Scotland of Scots parents but affects a scots accent and wears a kilt, he also wants something called home rule and truely believes the Scots won WW1 and 2.

Mick

I have a photo somewhere, but if people ask nicely, I won't post it. :P

Seriously, though, large numbers of sassenachs served in kilted units (and non-kilted Jock ones), while many Jocks will have done the opposite. In WW2 my Uncle Sid (from Newbury) was transferred from the Royal Berks to the 5th Seaforths. My point being that it must be an etremely difficult task to sort it all out.

I believe the London Scots (14th London) in 1914 recruited from Scots, or the sons of Scots; presumably the Liverpool Scots must have a similar rule: presumably, then, we could say a Jock is either Scots-born, or born of Scots-born.

I do wonder, then, what we would count the son of an English couple who were resident in Jockshire.

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Stephen,

My Grandfather was born in England to Scottish Parents.

His Wife was Scottish and their Family was born in Scotland.

Two of his Sons were killed, serving in a Scots Regiment and are recorded on the Scottish National War Memorial,by right I hope,despite their English ancestry.

It's a minefield and best left alone.

George

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What is the definition of a 'jock'? If my parents or a parent were born in Scotland but I was born in say Basildon, am I a Jock? (my parents weren't so don't worry anyone that knows me can rest easy). The reason I ask is that I know someone who was born 300 hundred miles south of Scotland of Scots parents but affects a scots accent and wears a kilt, he also wants something called home rule and truely believes the Scots won WW1 and 2.

Mick

Hi is that lad you know Rod Stewart? ;)

Gary.

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It seems as though roughly the same percentage of inhabitants of England and Scotland served. Since there would have been a lot more Scots resident in England than vice versa, that implies a slightly higher percentage of Scots in the sevices. One factor which would have affected casualties was the high pecentage of Scots regiments used as assault troops at Loos ( 2 Scots New Army Divisions, spearheading the main attacks) and the battle of Arras. Arras had the highest daily casualties of the war and involved 3 Scots divisions. A Jock is defined by parentage and allegiance.

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"What is the definition of a 'jock'?" Depends how good he is at tennis

A difficult question. My mother was born and brought up in Ireland and regards herself as British - she had cousins in Glasgow who regarded themselves as very much Scottish. That old curmudgeon Dr Johnson said something like "the noblest thing a Scotsman sees is the highroad to England" and there certainly has been a constant flow south so that there will be many English people who have a Scots ancestor somewhere. My paternal grandmother had a maiden name that originated in Scotland, the family having moved she said "because of a disagreement over a covenant", but the family has been in England for hundreds of years and no one regarded themselves as anything but English as far back as I can trace specific ancestors (Circa 1780). Would my Great Uncles who served with a Scottish name be regarded as Jocks?

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First, I have to say that, in the years I spent in England, I did not like being referred to as "Jock" by anyone who knew my name. A personal quirk but not unique to me. A Jock as a soldier was anyone serving in a Scots regiment. A person of English parentage, born in Scotland will consider himself Scots or English and declare an allegiance accordingly. We can only accept that person's own opinion. Equally, the child of Scots, born furth of Scotland will feel an allegiance either way. I knew people with London accents, born in London to Scots who had emigrated in the '30s who considered themselves Scots and went ' home ' every year to visit grannies and cousins. Others considered themselves English with Scots relations. Being Scottish is a state of mind as much as anything else. I know people in Dundee of Asian appearance, and Islamic in their religion who have a broader Dundonian accent than I and who consider themselves Scots and Bangladeshi. I for one am quite happy to accept them as such. I know that I never met anyone with Scots, Irish or Welsh blood who was ashamed of it. Most were only too eager to claim an aunty in Glasgow or a Gran in Belfast or an uncle in Cardiff.

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I agree with the Jock part,whilst serving in an English TA Regiment that was what I was called if my Christian Name was not known.

It did stick in my Mother's craw when she overheard it being used, to address me,when visiting.

My Son is English and has no allegiance to Scotland.His Team is England and we enjoy a good banter when either England or Scotland are losing.Currently we are about equal.

Whenever Wrexham played Macclesfield at home he joined in the Terrace Banter regarding the sheep association but in the knowledge that the supporters of Wrexham have offered great support to his Football Club in the past.

George

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A can of wurrms eh?

I think as has been said it's whatever the individual feels, i was born in Inverness,mother half irish,father yorkshireman,so am bit of a mongrel.I think of myself as a Jock ,as being scottish.I don't want independence .Whatever that makes me,that's what i am.Also my father was yorkshireman in HLI.

Chris, you love Scotland really,don't you?

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Scunnered ,means your Granny has fallen out with you,but she always has "pepperies"or some other sweet in her apron.

George

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Well, I am English born and bred but with a maternal grandfather who was a Scot. Having spent a lot of time with him in my childhood I have a great fondness for Scotland and things Scottish. I have a genetic calling for Scotland that cannot be denied, and I know that the Jock in me does not take long to surface, especially if impolitely jostled in a queue!

Ian

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Probably a lot of truth(as usual) in Chris's joke about haggis weaving,and having nothing to do,that accounts for a lot of jocks joining up.I know my wife's great uncles had all left home before they were 18.No dole money then,and with young brothers and sisters ,they go out and make their own way in life.There wasn't much to do in Argyllshire.

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and truely believes the Scots won WW1 and 2.

We did, both times. ;)

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