The Kings Liverpool Regiment 1st/8th bn.

[sabro1000]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum but would like to express how absolutely amazed i am by the unbelievable quality and quantity of the postings everyone exchanges. It is truely humbling to see the the dedication and selflessness of those who provide incredible responses to those (hopefully) like myself who are trying to find out more about relatives who were heroes and yet because of the circumstances of their death, about who very little is known. I'm sure in some strange way they would be proud that their sacrifice had allowed people such as yourselves to show such kindness to each other - on their behalf, thankyou....!

so to my quest to try and shed more light on the relative i lost during WWI....

for those who are interested in the personal story /detail.....

As a child i remember my father having on the wall various belts and buckles, all of which didnt mean much to me at the time. however on a recent trip back home (in light of my increased maturity? ) they captured my interest...further more i discovered that my dad actually already knew a few bits and pieces about their owner - his great-uncle (my great great uncle?).

i would love to learn more about what he was doing in his final months/weeks and where he died along with what circumstances. I expect the exact details are lost to history but hopefully the information i do already possess might help eek out any extra bits which are out there. I am particualrly keen to learn (as much as possible) the location of his death because i am going to visit the area at the start of October.

So here is what i know already....

(based on available info/assumptions)

Henry Garnett

....was a lance corporal* in 1st/8th bn. The Kings (Irish) Liverpool Regiment (known as "Liverpool Irish")

*elsewhere we have found him listed as Private so could it be he was promoted just before he died - are there any records available relating to promotions anywhere?

...his army number was 3099 (that's low i think, does that mean anything in particular?)

...he was killed on Sat 9th Sept 1916

...he is buried at Delville Wood Cemetery, Longueval, France. Grave ref xv.j.3 : http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=549350

From what i can make out of his likely movements

...during the month before his death (August) he was fighting in Guillemont: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=65885

....on the day of his death (9th Sept 1916), he was fighting to take Hop Alley and Ale Alley near Delville Wood (i read somewhere this is what 1st/8th bn. were doing on this date so must assume?).

A matter of identification

....we have a photo of a raiding party from 1st/8th bn. taken on 18th April 1916. It has become a huge point of debate in our house (we test every new person) as to whether a particular individual in it could be Henry. Turns out it's quite a famous photo actually - http://www.learningcurve.gov.uk/greatwar/g...ges/g3cs3s6.jpg the person in question is on the second row from the back (when you start from those stood most left in the photo), counting 7 people across from the left. ie. the man slightly shrowded stood down and left from the man in the helmet and in front of the guy who has his hand on that person's shoulder.

I've attached an actual photo of Henry, and also a side by side comparison - let me know what you think. So there is the possibility that we know something about his activities during April - i believe this raid was the one on which Lt E F Baxter won his VC, so there is some considerable detail about it (does anyone have more)?

help??

...basically i'm really looking to know if anyone had any further inforamtion which relates to Henry. In particular i would love to know more about what happened on the day he died, with the aim of trying to pinpoint where it was and what the circumstances were. It would mean so much to be able to walk the area he died accurately (any tips?)

Thankyou so much in advance for any information you can provide, however small it may be....

kind regards

Steve Brown

[Ian Riley]

Steve,

I am not a Liverpool Irish expert (at all) and I am inundated with work just at the moment but it just so happens I was working with the 1/8th KLR diary this afternoon in the Reading/Search Room of the Liverpool Maritime Museum (don't ask why it's there!). Are you anywhere near Liverpool? The operation orders for action are, I think, written up pretty much in full. The diary for September (as transcribed after the war for the historians into typescript) runs to 36 pages of close typed material including orders and (from memory) some quite extensive post action reports although you might need to work a bit to understand the code names for the various battalions and units which are sometimes used. The room is open Tuesdays to Thursday but I would definitely suggest a phone call to check if travelling any distance.

It can be ordered from the National Archive and the reference is, I think, WO 95/2923 which includes quite a lot of the 164 Infantry Brigade papers. The link to the NA is click here I apologise that I just do not have the time at the moment to summarise them.

The ground should be reasonably easy to find, the countryside in the area is pretty much unchanged although I have not walked this particular part of the battlefield. You would near a Série Blue 1:25000 map for the area and some copies of the maps in the history of the King's Regiment by Everard Wyrall. They should be reasonably easy to correlate.

Ian

PS I think there is a similarity in the photos but the eyes might be slightly different.

Edit - CORRECTION Sorry! It's late and I have confused 1916 with 1917. The War diary entries for August/September 1916 are considerably shorter than those for the corresponding months in 1917 (and with no long after-action reports). The comments about Wyrall still hold. Have you already seen the diary?

Edited 10 September , 2008 by Ian Riley

[Promenade]

Hi Steve,

I have sent you a PM hopefully with the details your require and will also put you in touch with someone who has studied the trench raid you refer to and indeed does talks on it!

Regards

Promenade

[jay dubaya]

Hi Steve, welcome to the forum,

the following is an extract from Westlake's 'Battalions on the Somme' and is compiled from actual war diary entries,

1/8th (Irish) Battalion (T.F). 164th Brigade, 55th (West Lancashire) Division:

Moved from Ivergny to Gezaincourt (2/7). To Fienvillers (22/7). Entrained at Candas for Mericourt (25/7) and from there marched to Meaulte. To Happy Valley (26/7), trenches east of Trones Wood (28/7). Attacking along sunken road to Guillemont (2/8). Relieved and to Bronfay Farm (4/8). To forward trenches (7/8). Attack on Guillemont (8/8) - advanced over the first line of trenches and into village without great loss. To the right and left assault was 1/5th North Lancashire (9/8) and to Bronfay Farm. Casualties - 570. To Mericourt (14/8). Entrained for Pont-Remy (19/8) and from there marched to Bouillancourt ('A' and 'B' Companies) and Miannay ('C' and 'D'). Entrained at Abbeville for Mericourt (30/8) and from there to bivouacs just north-west of Dernancourt. To huts off main Albert-Amiens Road (31/8), Montauban defences (7/9), support line (8/9). Took part in attack on Hop and Ale Alley east of Delville Wood (9/9). Held gains until relieved (12/9). To Ribemont (13/9), Buire (16/9), camp just outside Becordel-Becourt (17/9), reserve line Delville Wood (18/9), Mametz. (19/9), Savoy and Carlton Trenches (21/9), support positions near Flers (25/9), front line (26/9). Attack on Gird Lines (27/9) - objective Factory Corner (Gueudecourt Road) to Ligny-Thilloy Road. Relieved and to Mametz (28/9), Dernancourt (29/9). Entrained at Edgehill for Longpre (1/10) and from there marched to L'Etoile. Entrained at Longpre for Poperinghe (2/10).

SDGW lists Henry as having being born, enlisted and a resident of Blackpool and he was KiA on 9th September 1916, he is also listed a being a Lance Corporal. Do you have a copy of his MIC? It can be found here, it is also available on ancestry.com if you're a member, if not I'm sure another forum member will gladly look it up for you. A quick search online at the NA would also suggest that his service papers may have survived the Blitz, these also may be available on ancestry, if not they can be viewed in person at the NA.

I would also agree that the photo bears a very strong likeness to Henry.

cheers, Jon

[Promenade]

Hi,

Just to save any one the trouble all the suggestions by Jon have already been done and forwarded off line.

Promenade

[sabro1000]

Thanks everyone who has been kind enough to reply so far....

to reply to a few of the questions:

Ian

- i live in London currently due to work but my parents are still in Blackpool. I will definately try and get over to the museum at some point to look up the things you request. it's a shame the detail is limited until the next year but never mind, i suppose knowing the exact trenches is more than most people get. when i look at WO 95/2923 in NA, it says they are held by "The National Archives, Kew". so does this mean the original documents are there. living in london i can easily go and visit if this is the case? (sorry for not understanding immediately how public records work, this is my first experience).

the book you refer to. is this the correct one - i'd like to check before i buy because its quite expensive: http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Kings-Regiment-Liverpool-1914-1919/dp/184342360X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221048425&sr=1-1

://http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Kin...25&sr=1-1

://http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Kin...25&sr=1-1

://http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Kin...25&sr=1-1

Promenade

-thanks for the PM, i look forward to reading your mail and will let you know what i think

Jay

-thanks for the map. i had read the details of the activities by date before but had not been able to identify where those trenches were. it is amazing to now have accurate maps showing where the trenches were. i cant wait to try and locate them when i'm in France.

Has anyone visited this area - it is easy to identify the trench locations or are they now returned to normal farmland - i just wondered how much guesswork will be needed and how much is blindingly obvious - guess it varies greatly. I think we have the MIC but i will check with my dad. when you say service papers, what exactly do you mean - i couldnt find them on NA. how did you do the quick search and what did you locate. i could visit the NA to see these if i know what im potentially looking for..

i have added another photo which i think is easier to compare because it is less pixcellated.....

i agree that personally i think there is a reasonable resemblance. it's obviously hard to tell exactly and its a shame that he is one of the less clear people in the photo. the face shape seems very similar but i think my dad's strong belief that it is the same person comes from his initial reaction to randomly coming across it while reading the book. he says the person in that raid photo reminds him greatly of another of Henry's decendants (he can 'see them in that soldier'). never provable i suppose but interesting to speculate. even if it isnt him exactly, its still nice to know some detail about the type of missions he would've been on in good detail.

[jay dubaya]

Steve,

here's an image from google earth with the approxmate location of Hop and Ale Alley's and as you can see the land has been farmed for many years. If you can get to the NA I would suggest looking through WO 363/G 56 for Henry's service papers, just be aware though that only around a third of the service papers survived the Blitz and I'm only suggesting that Henry's may be amongst them, good luck,

cheers, Jon

[sabro1000]

Thanks to Promenade for some amazing information via email thanks to his database and the Museum of Liverpool. It turns out Henry was promoted on 9/8/16. i just wondered if anyone knew anything more about ranks and promotions?

why would people be recommended for promotions - a specific event, long service? also, how long would it take from being recommended to being promoted? what were the differences in activities/responsibilities between private and L/Cpl?

would just be nice to know a little more about it because my army and WW1 knowledge is limited as of yet.

Thanks everyone - my family are thrilled at the information you are providing!

[ALCTay]

Hi,

I've had a look at the photos you posted and here's a demonstration of how similar the proportions of the two faces are - all I did was make them the same size and paste them together, no stretching etc. It doesn't look like a true picture because of the different angles but the way the main features line up gives quite a convincing match. It wouldn't stand up in a court of law of course but I thought you might like to see.

regards

Amanda